There is only one true belief!!! (14 views)
From:  Dave Horne (DaveHorne711)   5/13/2001 11:10 am  
To:  ALL   (1 of 213)  
 
  29.1  
 
Hi, I've learned throughout my life (I'm now 50) that there is only one true belief, period ... that happens to be the belief of the person to whom you are currently speaking. 
Please don't respond to me. I am an atheist (earlier in my life, I believed in various different beliefs) and am quite capable for deciding for myself what to 'believe in' and what not to. 

All the best, Dave Horne - The Netherlands
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    5/13/2001 4:02 pm  
To:  Dave Horne (DaveHorne711)   (2 of 213)  
 
  29.2 in reply to 29.1  
 
Dave, 
Another post, you must really have it in for religion or is it Just Christians. 
I implore you to Consider your own Heritage. Your Nordic Region was at one time an exclusive worshiper of False gods. 

Yet the Nordic region became the Fastest Convert to Christianity the World has ever seen. I think that your fore-fathers Knew what it was like to Worship false gods and when the Truth of Jesus was Presented to them, they Immediately responded by embracing the Truth of Christianity. 

If you choose to Ignore other Evidences of the Existence of God, the Bible and Christianity, Please examine the existence of your Regions Christian Heritage, and of the Glory that your fore-fathers have given to God by turning from false gods to Worshiping the True and Living God. 






David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  Dave Horne (DaveHorne711)   5/13/2001 4:25 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (3 of 213)  
 
  29.3 in reply to 29.2  
 
David, 
<Another post, you must really have it in for religion or is it Just Christians.> 

No, David, I am equally infuriated by _anyone_ who professes to have "The Answer". You have 'the answer', yours is the only true answer, correct? If I believe the same as you, I will be saved ... doesn't it go something like that? I have the same feelings when I encounter narrow minded Jews or narrow minded Moslems ... you name it. Anyone who thinks they have a corner on the Truth irritates me. Religious people in general irritate me because they don't have to think for themselves, they just have to follow a written script ... that's exactly what you're doing. You don't think for yourself, what would happen if that Book contained anything that wasn't true? You would have to pick out what you wanted to believe in and discard the rest. 

<I implore you to Consider your own Heritage. Your Nordic Region was at one time an exclusive worshiper of False gods.> 

David, how do you know what my heritage is? I was born in Philadelphia, I _live_ in the Netherlands. False gods, true gods ... how many gods are there? 

Incidentally, the culture in the US had its roots on this side of the puddle. I live near a city that was founded about 900 years ago. Just how old is your city? It's probably less than that, I'd wager. 

<If you choose to Ignore other Evidences of the Existence of God, the Bible and Christianity, Please examine the existence of your Regions Christian Heritage, and of the Glory that your fore-fathers have given to God by turning from false gods to Worshiping the True and Living God.> 

David, there you go again ... you have The Answer. You also have a fair amount of free time. 

I'm still trying to figure out how we have this genetic diversity when, according to some, we are the end result of just two people ... and I guess inter-marrying from then on out. 

All the best, David Dave Horne - The Netherlands 

 
  
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  From:  StevenJn316   5/14/2001 12:48 am  
To:  ALL   (4 of 213)  
 
  29.4 in reply to 29.3  
 
The word 'truth' seems to have a special meaning when speaking of issues of religion. I know of no other field where one can speak of his 'truth' or her 'truth' and remain unchallenged in such a statement. So rather than be critical of Christians (or anyone else) who claim to possess religious truth - maybe one should look first at the meaning of the word. 
For example, many sincerely believe that a tree is God. Their belief (faith) may be based on the writings of another and may be shared by millions over the years. 

Others (such as Christians, Muslims etc.) do NOT believe a tree is God. Rather that tree is a creation of God, but not God Himself. Now, one view is right and one is wrong - TRUE or FALSE. And we could go on and on, such as either Jesus rose physically from the dead or did not. Either Adam and Eve were direct creations of God or not, either the devil (as a powerful, spirit being) exits or not etc... 

Now one can discuss the merits for believing or not in certain religious ideas, but it seems all such discussion must first be predicated on the acceptance that there is an absolute truth. What that truth is, whether we can ever know it etc. comes secondarily. 

But to say truth is the same as personal belief is foolish - if the word is to retain its standard definition, understood by all. My child may believe sincerely that L follows N in the alphabet, but he is wrong, and if he continues in that error it will lead him astray in life. Likewise math, science, history and any other subject are treated the same way as to truth. 

And please note - this is not a comment on people having the right to believe what they want. One can be free to believe we never landed on the moon and it was all a fake stunt by NASA if you please...but believing that does not make it the truth.
 
  
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  From:  NTICRAWLER   5/30/2001 8:39 am  
To:  ALL   (5 of 213)  
 
  29.5 in reply to 29.4  
 
"True irreverence is disrespect for another man's God." Mark Twain 
  
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  From:  Dave Horne (DaveHorne711)   5/31/2001 9:45 am  
To:  NTICRAWLER unread  (7 of 213)  
 
  29.7 in reply to 29.5  
 
Dear Nticrawler, ... or can I just call you NTI? 
To trust the God of the Bible is to trust an irascible, vindictive, fierce and ever fickle and changeful master; to trust the true God is to trust a Being who has uttered no promises, but whose beneficent, exact, and changeless ordering of the machinery of His colossal universe is proof that He is at least steadfast to His purposes; whose unwritten laws, so far as the affect man, being equal and impartial, show that he is just and fair; these things, taken together, suggest that if he shall ordain us to live hereafter, he will be steadfast, just and fair toward us. We shall not need to require anything more. 
- Mark Twain
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    5/31/2001 9:50 am  
To:  Dave Horne (DaveHorne711)   (8 of 213)  
 
  29.8 in reply to 29.7  
 
Dave, 
Could you please provide a reference to this quote of Mark Twain. 

Im not totally doubting that he said it but I would also like to view the full statement. 





David A. Brown
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  From:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    5/31/2001 9:55 am  
To:  Dave Horne (DaveHorne711)   (9 of 213)  
 
  29.9 in reply to 29.7  
 
The God of the Bible is the only true God. He is not a irascible, vindictive, fierce and ever fickle or changeful master. He has set everything down in His Word and He will not deviate from what is written there. 
Ruth


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  From:  Dave Horne (DaveHorne711)   5/31/2001 9:59 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (10 of 213)  
 
  29.10 in reply to 29.8  
 
http://www.twainquotes.com/ 
  
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  From:  Star Storm (siskama)    5/31/2001 10:23 am  
To:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    (11 of 213)  
 
  29.11 in reply to 29.9  
 
"The God of the Bible is the only true God. He is not a irascible, vindictive, fierce and ever fickle or changeful master. He has set everything down in His Word and He will not deviate from what is written there. 
Ruth" 
Since HE DIDNT WRITE IT DOWN, how do you know if He will deviate? AND he si all those things and ahtes women as well....I love the new Testament but I gotta tell ya The Old was written down by hateful old patriachial men whose way was the only way or you could hit the highway OR DIE by a dagger in your body , as you were a NON BELIEVER.... Believe what you awbnt to believe, of course...but do not PRESUME to tell others that that is the oNLY WAY!....I have a GOD, hHe is Kind MS



For Spell Crafting,Incense Powders, Flying Ointment,Power and Attraction Oils, Body Nourishment,Salves and various other Herbal Products, please go to Medicine Song's Majikal Moon at address below...Thank you ! Medicine Song's Majikal Moon
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  From:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    5/31/2001 12:41 pm  
To:  Star Storm (siskama)    (12 of 213)  
 
  29.12 in reply to 29.11  
 
God wrote the Bible through man and He said that He would not do anything contrary to His Word. 
How can you say that God hates women? Who was the first person that Jesus revealed himself to as the Messiah? The woman at the well. Who was the first person to see Jesus after He rose from the dead? A woman named Mary Magdalene. 

Ruth 


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  From:  Star Storm (siskama)    5/31/2001 1:02 pm  
To:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    (13 of 213)  
 
  29.13 in reply to 29.12  
 
What I said was; THE GOD of the PATRIARCHS hated women, just as they all did back then...They were not even good enough to eat at the same tables or make any decisions about their own lives...THEY WERE Cattle Ruth.... Women and Children were CATTLE . Chattel to be bought, sold, sacrificed and stoned to death for things a man wasnt even chastised for.... The Real Father of Jesus God would not have been that way I dont believe..... MS


For Spell Crafting,Incense Powders, Flying Ointment,Power and Attraction Oils, Body Nourishment,Salves and various other Herbal Products, please go to Medicine Song's Majikal Moon at address below...Thank you ! Medicine Song's Majikal Moon
VERY SENSUAL SCENTED MASSAGE and BODY OILS and Crystal Point Wands etc....
Seekers of Olde Knowledge
TO DIE FOR PERFUMES & HOME SCENTS, for Body & Soul,Please visit: THE ROWAN'S PLACE 

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  From:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    5/31/2001 1:16 pm  
To:  Star Storm (siskama)    (14 of 213)  
 
  29.14 in reply to 29.13  
 
Jesus is God. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. You are angry at God for something that man has done. God loves women very much. Women were expected to make decisions for their household on a daily basis. God said that a woman is more precious then rubies. 
Ruth


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  From:  Star Storm (siskama)    5/31/2001 1:33 pm  
To:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    (15 of 213)  
 
  29.15 in reply to 29.14  
 
Not angry at the God I love at all....Angry that some people accept and unfogiving hellfire and brimstone interpretation of Someone who sho be Forgiving and generous and loving..... 


For Spell Crafting,Incense Powders, Flying Ointment,Power and Attraction Oils, Body Nourishment,Salves and various other Herbal Products, please go to Medicine Song's Majikal Moon at address below...Thank you ! Medicine Song's Majikal Moon
VERY SENSUAL SCENTED MASSAGE and BODY OILS and Crystal Point Wands etc....
Seekers of Olde Knowledge
TO DIE FOR PERFUMES & HOME SCENTS, for Body & Soul,Please visit: THE ROWAN'S PLACE 

COMMON SCENTS !


  
 
  
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  From:  Dave Horne (DaveHorne711)   5/31/2001 1:37 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (16 of 213)  
 
  29.16 in reply to 29.8  
 

"Man is a Religious Animal. He is the only Religious Animal. He is the only animal that has the True Religion- several of them. He is the only animal that loves his neighbor as himself and cuts his throat if his theology isn't straight." 
Mark Twain 

 
  
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  From:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    5/31/2001 1:44 pm  
To:  Star Storm (siskama)    (17 of 213)  
 
  29.17 in reply to 29.15  
 
Well I agree I'm angry that some people serve a hateful god whose goal is to send them to hell. I'm even more angry that they atribute these qualities to the only true and living God, Jesus Christ. The true and living God is kind, loving, forgiving, and desires that no one go to hell. That's why He has made it as easy as possible to go to heaven with Him. All anyone has to do is accept the sacrifice that He has already provided. 
Ruth


Recent Discussion Topics: 
How many old songs can you name? 
 Are you a oldie but goodie? Well come name some of those songs with us and let's meet each other.
 
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    5/31/2001 2:10 pm  
To:  Dave Horne (DaveHorne711)   (18 of 213)  
 
  29.18 in reply to 29.16  
 
Dave, 
Thanks I will try to get over to that site. Why am I not surprised that you quoted a second hand source for the quote instead of something you discovered by yourself. I was only interested in the quote because I thought it originated from your rational. 

Since I am not a disciple of Mark Twain You can also spare me any further Twain quotes. 





David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  Dave Horne (DaveHorne711)   5/31/2001 2:17 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (19 of 213)  
 
  29.19 in reply to 29.18  
 
David, 
<Why am I not surprised that you quoted a second hand source for the quote instead of something you discovered by yourself. > 

Now that's a real interesting remark, but I'm sure the irony escapes you. 

All the best, Dave Horne 



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Edited 6/1/2001 1:06:30 PM ET by DAVEHORNE711 
  
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   From:  David (DavidABrown)    5/31/2001 3:01 pm  
To:  Star Storm (siskama)    (20 of 213)  
 
  29.20 in reply to 29.11  
 
God did write the Bible through people and He also Personally wrote some of it Himself.
God wrote the 10 Commandments into Rock

Exodus 31:18 And He (God) gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with Him upon Mount Sinai, two tablets of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.

Jesus Himself dictated 7 letters to seven Churches.

Revelation 1:18 I am He that liveth and was dead; and behold, I am alive forevermore, Amen; and have keys of hell and of death. Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are and the things which shall be hereafter;

Revelation 2:1 Unto the angel (messenger) of the church of Ephesus write;






David A. Brown
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From:  Star Storm (siskama)    5/31/2001 5:45 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (21 of 213)  
 
  29.21 in reply to 29.20  
 
Well fine....did anyone ever SEE THE ROCKS in the last 3000 years? Nope......And ten commandments are NOT THE WHOLE BIBLE!!!! It was written by MANY DIFFERENT People whether you like it or not Dave..... MS


For Spell Crafting,Incense Powders, Flying Ointment,Power and Attraction Oils, Body Nourishment,Salves and various other Herbal Products, please go to Medicine Song's Majikal Moon at address below...Thank you ! Medicine Song's Majikal Moon
VERY SENSUAL SCENTED MASSAGE and BODY OILS and Crystal Point Wands etc....
Seekers of Olde Knowledge
TO DIE FOR PERFUMES & HOME SCENTS, for Body & Soul,Please visit: THE ROWAN'S PLACE 

COMMON SCENTS !


  
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    5/31/2001 5:57 pm  
To:  Star Storm (siskama)    (22 of 213)  
 
  29.22 in reply to 29.21  
 
The Bible has one Author God. 
The Bible Genesis  Revelation has one central theme of God and mankind. Yes 40+ people wrote it But then how did 40+ people come up with one Book. 

Genesis was written about 4,000 years before Revelation was written. How many Earthly Authors do you know that write a few chapters of a book then wait for 4,000 years and 40 more people to add to and to conclude the book. 

This has happened to the Bible because God is the Author of the Bible and not man. 

See the "Dead Sea Scrolls" thread for more information on how the Modern Bible matches ancient Bibles that are found.




David A. Brown
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  From:  Star Storm (siskama)    5/31/2001 7:54 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (23 of 213)  
 
  29.23 in reply to 29.22  
 
Dear dave....I do not argue your right to believe without question everything you read.....BUT if you would read some of the HEBREW Translations and then read what a Christain translated it to say you would be amazed at the innacuracies of BOTH because UNLEARNED people were put to copying things...one tiny wrong stroke of a Hebrew writing implement could change the ENTIRE meaning of a phrase....Go to Theological School Dave...you are bright enough but not all that well learned.... MS


For Spell Crafting,Incense Powders, Flying Ointment,Power and Attraction Oils, Body Nourishment,Salves and various other Herbal Products, please go to Medicine Song's Majikal Moon at address below...Thank you ! Medicine Song's Majikal Moon
VERY SENSUAL SCENTED MASSAGE and BODY OILS and Crystal Point Wands etc....
Seekers of Olde Knowledge
TO DIE FOR PERFUMES & HOME SCENTS, for Body & Soul,Please visit: THE ROWAN'S PLACE 

COMMON SCENTS !


  
 
  
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  From:  Zebra30   6/1/2001 3:59 am  
To:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    (24 of 213)  
 
  29.24 in reply to 29.17  
 
The problem, Ruth, is that Medicine Song just like the rest of unrepentant hunanity wants to create God in its own flawed image. Medicine Song, like most of us if we're honest, can accept a God who is "all loving and all forgiving (whatever that might mean nowadays), but bristle at any suggestion of commandments or standards we are to uphold. What Medicine Song wants is a God who's commandments she can disobey with immpunity, and then turn around just expect this God to look the other way. This is what at the base of atheism. It is a desire to go our(meaning mankind's) own way without having to consider any kind of final moral authority. That's how I feel. 
  
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  From:  Star Storm (siskama)    6/1/2001 8:06 am  
To:  Zebra30   (25 of 213)  
 
  29.25 in reply to 29.24  
 
How DARE you to know what I want.....I want a World where Humans do not rape, murder, torture and abuse one another....I want a world where people like you dont exist only to call others names and presume to know who they are and what kind of hearts they have.....I want a world that is like EDEN was in the beginning.... I want what Jesus taught me...kindness, tender hearts, love for all living things and a world where no child is hungry or has fear.......You on the other hand want to manipulate and make anyone who is different from you seem dirty and irreverant.....Shame on you....I bet Jesus weeps when he looks down here and sees people like ya'll SUPPOSEDLY teaching His wonderful Gospels....For shame for shame...... )O(

 
For Spell Crafting,Incense Powders, Flying Ointment,Power and Attraction Oils, Body Nourishment,Salves and various other Herbal Products, please go to Medicine Song's Majikal Moon at address below...Thank you ! Medicine Song's Majikal Moon
VERY SENSUAL SCENTED MASSAGE and BODY OILS and Crystal Point Wands etc....
Seekers of Olde Knowledge
TO DIE FOR PERFUMES & HOME SCENTS, for Body & Soul,Please visit: THE ROWAN'S PLACE 

COMMON SCENTS !


  
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/1/2001 8:30 am  
To:  Star Storm (siskama)    (26 of 213)  
 
  29.26 in reply to 29.25  
 
The fact is Jesus Rejoices in Christians like Zebra30 who are true to the Gospel of Jesus. People who correctly call sin  sin and people who know Jesus as the true living God and love Him and Him alone.



David A. Brown
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  From:  Rowan (POTIONS)    6/1/2001 7:53 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (27 of 213)  
 
  29.27 in reply to 29.22  
 
The Bible has one Author God 
but many translators and no one alive who can even read, let alone understand some of the original words found. 

sorry... 
God may not be fallable, but man sure as ___ is!


Contemplate the little things in life and then enjoy them all!..... Rowan





Many thanks to Valcali at Creative Signatures, who took my dream and made it real! 


Creative Signatures


For wonderful herbal products, please go to:


Medicine Song's Moon Lair

For you perfume or aroma items, please visit me at:


Common Scents Perfumes

 
  
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  From:  Wyild   6/1/2001 8:33 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (28 of 213)  
 
  29.28 in reply to 29.26  
 
Oooh, looks like I gotcha here, Mr. Brown. 
"The fact is Jesus Rejoices in Christians like Zebra30 who are true to the Gospel of Jesus." 
You dare to speak for Jesus? Isn't that some kind of sin? FOR SHAME, FOR SHAME. 

"People who correctly call sin sin..." 
Er, I'm gonna do something I know you'd love... QUOTE THE BIBLE: 
---Let he who has not sinned cast the first stone.--- 
Well now... FOR SHAME, FOR SHAME! (And mind you, that's your commandment, not mine... Though I'd rather not violate it, as a universal rule, but here I feel it makes my point exceptionally clear.) 

"...and people who know Jesus as the true living God and love Him and Him alone." 
One of your commandments: ---Love thy neighbor as thyself.--- 
Well now, looks like that one's being beat down the street here. For shame, for shame. 

So... My purpose with this here post, is to demonstrate- 
You attack another beliefs, they're going to come right back at you. You said those words, and well, (so to speak,) you're going to have to 'eat' them... This can demonstrate another lovely principle of karma, or even the Threefold Law. Wow!
 
  
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  From:  BURRTON   6/2/2001 11:53 pm  
To:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    (29 of 213)  
 
  29.29 in reply to 29.12  
 
Do you seriously believe the Arc story, litterally? 
All those animals, distances to get them, keep them? 
A polar bear in Alaska, a Koala in Australia? 
One man, no transportation? It is a bit much to swallow. 
  
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  From:  BURRTON   6/3/2001 12:02 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (30 of 213)  
 
  29.30 in reply to 29.20  
 
David, I have a serious question. 
do you believe life will be discovered on other planets? 
If so, if the life is "intelligent" life as we know it, 
would you assume they would worship the same God as Earth? 
If they do worship a God different than the one worshipped on Earth, 
would you expect them to burn in Hell? 
What I'm trying to say is, would we have the gaul to force "our" 
Christianity on them over "their" God? 
Do you have an opinion on this? 
 
  
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  From:  Star Storm (siskama)    6/3/2001 8:22 am  
To:  BURRTON   (31 of 213)  
 
  29.31 in reply to 29.30  
 
Whatcha wanna bet he Quotes ya some scripture? he cant talk on his own, I don't think.....

 
For Spell Crafting,Incense Powders, Flying Ointment,Power and Attraction Oils, Body Nourishment,Salves and various other Herbal Products, please go to Medicine Song's Majikal Moon at address below...Thank you ! Medicine Song's Majikal Moon
VERY SENSUAL SCENTED MASSAGE and BODY OILS and Crystal Point Wands etc....
Seekers of Olde Knowledge
TO DIE FOR PERFUMES & HOME SCENTS, for Body & Soul,Please visit: THE ROWAN'S PLACE 

COMMON SCENTS !


   
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/3/2001 8:24 am  
To:  BURRTON   (32 of 213)  
 
  29.32 in reply to 29.30  
 
I think where you are going with this life on other planets is the whole UFO Alien thing. And I would like to start a new string on that topic. Give me a while to respond completely, Im currently behind in some other responses. 
But the short version is I dont believe that there are other life forms out there. I do however believe that there are Demonic spirits masquerading as aliens. 

I dont for one second think that a respectable honorable Government would cross millions of light years of space come to Earth, stay half an hour, mutilate a cow, abduct a few people and then speed of into thin air. A Civilized Government would come during the day in a Diplomatic fashion. So much for Alien diplomacy, and if they are civilized then we do not need to make excuses to defend their behavior. 

Please do not turn this thread into a UFO thread, I will start a new one in a few days, that way other people can find the discussion. 

In the mean time if you would like to know more about how I feel on this topic locate the Video UFOs The Hidden Truth I agree with what they have concluded. 







David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  BURRTON   6/3/2001 10:52 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (33 of 213)  
 
  29.33 in reply to 29.32  
 
No, no UFO "thing", I assure you. 
I was just asking if, eventually other people were discovered somwewhere, would you allow them to have whatever religion, if any 
they happen to have or would you assume "our" Bible would 
be "their" Bible even though they were from elsewhere? 
I hope I make some fragment of sense to you. 
I'm not a UFO conspiracy believer, that far gone, I'm not. 
  
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  From:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    6/4/2001 9:06 am  
To:  Zebra30   (34 of 213)  
 
  29.34 in reply to 29.24  
 
That's true Zebra. Atheism, wicca, goddess worship, etc is just rebellion. People want to tailor the god that they worship to fit them so that they don't have to change or conform to anything. 
Ruth


Recent Discussion Topics: 
How many old songs can you name? 
 Are you a oldie but goodie? Well come name some of those songs with us and let's meet each other.
 
- In Sheepgate
 
 
 



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  From:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    6/4/2001 9:23 am  
To:  BURRTON   (35 of 213)  
 
  29.35 in reply to 29.29  
 
Yes I do believe the Ark story literally. What you fail to realize is that within one species there are different breeds. Take a dog for example. Did Noah have two German Shepards, two Rottweilers, Two Blue Heeler, two Boxers, and two American Pitbull Terriers on board the ark? Of course not. Those various breeds were not even in existance at the time. Did he have a male and female dog that carried all of the genetic information to eventually bring about those breeds? Yes most definately. Changes within a species does not equal evolution. All Noah needed was one breeding pair of each species. Changes have occured through the passage of time to create new breeds but there is no record of new species being created, only discovered. 
Ruth


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  From:  BURRTON   6/4/2001 1:30 pm  
To:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    (36 of 213)  
 
  29.36 in reply to 29.35  
 
Wonderful response, but yes I do realise 
different types of animals "evolve"from one species. 
The Arc story does still cause me to doubt it. 
It is a rather simplified story which makes me think it was 
written as a "quick fix" explanation to satisfy the uneducated.weak minds of the time. Amazingly, it still does. 
  
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  From:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    6/4/2001 2:46 pm  
To:  BURRTON   (37 of 213)  
 
  29.37 in reply to 29.36  
 
Just because something is simple doesn't mean it's not true. I know people that can make a train wreck look like a fender bender. 
Ruth


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  From:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    6/4/2001 4:49 pm  
To:  BURRTON   (38 of 213)  
 
  29.38 in reply to 29.36  
 
"Wonderful response, but yes I do realise different types of animals "evolve"from one species." 
I just want to be clear in what I am saying. There is no such thing as cross species evolution. For example a fish will never "evolve" into a bear. Fish breeders will use selective breeding to either eliminate or enhance specific qualities such as color and fin length. A person that breeds catfish isn't going to use selective breeding to develop a frog though, unless he's insane. 

Ruth 


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  From:  Zebra30   6/4/2001 5:50 pm  
To:  Star Storm (siskama)    (39 of 213)  
 
  29.39 in reply to 29.25  
 
That's funny,Medicine Song. I don't recall calling you any names in my posting. Are you sure that you don't have me confused with someone else? As for my wanting to manipulate people.....what do you call your witchcraft? I can't help but notice that in the messages you send to this board the advertisements for potions, spells, ointments, incense and other witchcraft paraphenalia. What is witchcraft but the attempt to manipulate the elements and forces of nature for one's own personal use independent of the Creator of those forces. I'm sorry if I've made you feel "dirty and irreverent" as you put it, but I'm just reacting to your message. I don't have, never have had, and don't desire to have right now any power to manipulate anyone. I only desire to "earnestly contend for the faith that was once delivered unto the saints" (to quote Jude verse 3). As for the rest of your message......which "Jesus" do you mean? I hardly recognize the Man in your posting. The "Jesus" in your message seems like such a pushover that no thinking person would want to follow Him. Why would they? I follow Jesus because He paid the ultimate price for my sins, both known and unknown. But you know something, Medicine Song? You and I do have something in common. I too want a world where people don't rape, rob, murder,etc., and where children don't go to bed hungry. But we'll never have those things unless we acknowledge our sinfulness before the Creator of the universe, God made manifest in the flesh, the Man Christ Jesus. It's really interesting how some of you unbelievers take words and phrases out of a book which you obviously have no regard for and twist them to fit your own personal agenda. I must say that you had an interesting way of beginning your message when you said that you wanted a world without people like me who try to correct some of your misconceptions. Are you saying that the perfect world is one with only those people like yourself? I'm sorry, Medicine Song, but my original statements still stand. If you wish to discuss this further or have questions, please don't hesitate to contact me. I'll try to answer your questions if I can. Thank you. 
  
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   From:  Star Storm (siskama)    6/4/2001 6:58 pm  
To:  Zebra30   (40 of 213)  
 
  29.40 in reply to 29.39  
 

POSTED BY ZEBRA about Medicine song and people 'like her'!!! 
"The problem, Ruth, is that Medicine Song just like the rest of unrepentant hunanity wants to create God in its own flawed image. Medicine Song, like most of us if we're honest, can accept a God who is "all loving and all forgiving (whatever that might mean nowadays), but bristle at any suggestion of commandments or standards we are to uphold. What Medicine Song wants is a God who's commandments she can disobey with immpunity, and then turn around just expect this God to look the other way. This is what at the base of atheism. It is a desire to go our(meaning mankind's) own way without having to consider any kind of final moral authority. That's how I feel." 

No, I dont have you confused with anyone else's posts...Out of your own mouth, above.....you call me an unbeliever and an athiest..... and a manipulator....EXCUSE ME???? I try to manipulate a person's immune system with herbal POTIONS (medical uses)....Wash their bodies with HERBAL soaps....Make their homes smell good with incense THE SAME Incenses that Catholics use in their RITES and rituals....and to Manipulate their belief in their own SELF WOTH by using prayer and ritual candles the way YOUR CHRISTIAN churches have been known to do.....AND to help someone focus on their Spirituality....now.....I am tolerant of people like you who belive in HELL FIRE and BRIMSTONE and your Satan...I just choose a kind Jesus and no Satan....so tell me Z....Have I or can I harm you or anyone else with this belief???? oh and PS The Wands are made of Wood (Earth Made and a Silica (quartz...earthmade) and are used to draw a circle that protects one from errant spirits who might want to harm one, and to define a Place that I feel is sacred....So Z...Keep on believing what you believe and i will do the same, your arguments are just that Arguing for the sake of arguing...you cant make converts with hostility and anger.....I have neither for you...I am just puzzled that you think I am beneath you and your concept of Christ's love and protection and concern..By the way Z I KEEP the Commandments and have been married thirty five years to the same man, raised a child who is exemplary, doesnt smoke, do drugs or beat up on people, and who has a loving, compassionate nature..So how do you think that happened if I am evil and awful?...Dont bother to post back with more vitriol...you only make yourself look small and intolerant.......MS

 
For Spell Crafting,Incense Powders, Flying Ointment,Power and Attraction Oils, Body Nourishment,Salves and various other Herbal Products, please go to Medicine Song's Majikal Moon at address below...Thank you ! Medicine Song's Majikal Moon
VERY SENSUAL SCENTED MASSAGE and BODY OILS and Crystal Point Wands etc....

Seekers of Olde Knowledge
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From:  Zebra30   6/4/2001 10:03 pm  
To:  Star Storm (siskama)    (41 of 213)  
 
  29.41 in reply to 29.40  
 
I probably shouldn't reply to this as we seem to have a terrible lack of communication, but I'll try anyway. Where have I made you feel bad? I'm just pointing out that in true Christianity there is no room for the dark arts. You mentioned drawing circles with a particular wand to keep away "errant spirits" (as you call them). What is this other than witchcraft? And yes, you are an unbeliever according to our Holy Scriptures. There are clear proscriptions against what you are involved in. I don't know about your being an atheist because I never directly called you one. I was just pointing out the similarities between the different belief systems. I'm just saying that you cannot call yourself a Christian and yet practice divination, practices forbidden in both the Old and New Testament. You're telling me (at least it sounds that way to me) that you are both a Christian and a witch. I'm telling you that it's not possible and it's a contradiction in terms. And by the way, Medicine Song, Satan is not "my Satan" as you say because I've been saved from his clutches. I certainly wish the same for you. 
  
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  From:  BURRTON   6/4/2001 11:33 pm  
To:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    (42 of 213)  
 
  29.42 in reply to 29.38  
 
I'm clear on your response, no argument here. 
Still have a problem with Christianity in general but 
I understand where you're coming from as far as the Arc 
"thing" is concerned. 
  
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  From:  Star Storm (siskama)    6/5/2001 8:11 am  
To:  Zebra30   (43 of 213)  
 
  29.43 in reply to 29.41  
 
You are very misguided and I am sorry that you wont see that yes, I am a Christian Zebra....Yes, I love Jesus with all my heart and yes, I am happy and was saved by His love many years ago....and as for Dark Arts....Those who call them selves Satanists proclaim the darkside...I shun them, as you do me....I SHUN them because they believe in NOTHING but vileness and evil as far as I can see.... Hope you have a good life Z...but I am not going to post to you anymore..I am certain that not one of you here have looked into the Goodness and Joy of the Earth Religions that were practiced before there was a Bible to confuse things.... It makes me cry when people believe ill and evil of me.....MS

 
For Spell Crafting,Incense Powders, Flying Ointment,Power and Attraction Oils, Body Nourishment,Salves and various other Herbal Products, please go to Medicine Song's Majikal Moon at address below...Thank you ! Medicine Song's Majikal Moon
VERY SENSUAL SCENTED MASSAGE and BODY OILS and Crystal Point Wands etc....
Seekers of Olde Knowledge
TO DIE FOR PERFUMES & HOME SCENTS, for Body & Soul,Please visit: THE ROWAN'S PLACE 

COMMON SCENTS !


 
 
  
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  From:  Adrasteia & Lyrk (ToilnTrouble)   6/5/2001 9:23 am  
To:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    (44 of 213)  
 
  29.44 in reply to 29.34  
 
Adrasteia: 
I often wonder if one-true-way types ever notice the arrogance they display when referring to other religions, or lack thereof. 
In this post, you say basically that all other religions on earth are simply rebellion against YOUR God. You imply that those who follow other paths, or no religious path at all, really 'know better' but choose to worship false Gods just to tick off what we all really know is the true god. Please... I don't recall the beatitudes mentioning 'blessed are the insufferably arrogant'.


When in the Hell/Purgatory area, feel free to visit the Den of Iniquity! Join the fun! 
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  From:  Star Storm (siskama)    6/5/2001 11:04 am  
To:  Adrasteia & Lyrk (ToilnTrouble)   (45 of 213)  
 
  29.45 in reply to 29.44  
 
Yeee hawwwww....My sentiments perzackly! :) xo MS

 
For Spell Crafting,Incense Powders, Flying Ointment,Power and Attraction Oils, Body Nourishment,Salves and various other Herbal Products, please go to Medicine Song's Majikal Moon at address below...Thank you ! Medicine Song's Majikal Moon
VERY SENSUAL SCENTED MASSAGE and BODY OILS and Crystal Point Wands etc....
Seekers of Olde Knowledge
TO DIE FOR PERFUMES & HOME SCENTS, for Body & Soul,Please visit: THE ROWAN'S PLACE 

COMMON SCENTS !


 
 
  
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  From:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    6/5/2001 3:52 pm  
To:  Adrasteia & Lyrk (ToilnTrouble)   (46 of 213)  
 
  29.46 in reply to 29.44  
 
I'm just repeating what God has said, if you want to see that as arrogance then go right ahead. 
Ruth


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  From:  Zebra30   6/5/2001 7:38 pm  
To:  Star Storm (siskama)    (47 of 213)  
 
  29.47 in reply to 29.43  
 
Well, it's become painfully obvious to me that I am not going to change your mind any more than you will change mine. I tried to explain to you where you are mistaken, but you have chosen not to listen, so I'll just say keep on believing what you wish and let's leave it at that, okay? 'Bye now. 
  
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  From:  Adrasteia & Lyrk (ToilnTrouble)   6/6/2001 11:16 am  
To:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    (48 of 213)  
 
  29.48 in reply to 29.46  
 
No, it's your take on what your God has said, or inspired humans to write. Christians have wildly differing interperetatiojns of their own scripture. Your interperetation, just like everyone elses, is colored by your own biases. So, no God didn't say it. Ruth did.


When in the Hell/Purgatory area, feel free to visit the Den of Iniquity! Join the fun! 
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  From:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    6/6/2001 12:23 pm  
To:  Adrasteia & Lyrk (ToilnTrouble)   (49 of 213)  
 
  29.49 in reply to 29.48  
 
You can't get closer then John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 

Black and white God Himself saying that it's His way or no way. 
Ruth


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  From:  Adrasteia & Lyrk (ToilnTrouble)   6/6/2001 12:39 pm  
To:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    (50 of 213)  
 
  29.50 in reply to 29.49  
 
But there are other Christians that would say his example is the Way, not Christ himself. To live as he lived, regardless of religious categorization.


When in the Hell/Purgatory area, feel free to visit the Den of Iniquity! Join the fun! 
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  From:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    6/6/2001 1:30 pm  
To:  Adrasteia & Lyrk (ToilnTrouble)   (51 of 213)  
 
  29.51 in reply to 29.50  
 
AAAHH but that isn't what He said. He said that He is the way. He didn't say "if you live the way I do then you'll be OK". 
Ruth


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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/6/2001 2:20 pm  
To:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    (52 of 213)  
 
  29.52 in reply to 29.51  
 
Excellent point! 
People are so interested in twisting the Bible to make it say what they want to hear that people are ignoring the Clear Precise message of the Bible. 





David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  Adrasteia & Lyrk (ToilnTrouble)   6/6/2001 5:13 pm  
To:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    (53 of 213)  
 
  29.53 in reply to 29.51  
 
Hey maybe it was poetic license? After all, when was the last time you saw someone walking around with a plank in their eye? Or straining at a gnat?

When in the Hell/Purgatory area, feel free to visit the Den of Iniquity! Join the fun! 
http://forums.delphi.com/firefight/start 

I've got a dragon, and I'm not afraid to use it! 

Adrasteia & Lyrk: 
The Sapphic Spellcasters!
 
  
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  From:  Adrasteia & Lyrk (ToilnTrouble)   6/6/2001 5:22 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (54 of 213)  
 
  29.54 in reply to 29.52  
 
You don't twist scripture, eh? So, since you must take Matthew 26:26 at face value, I'm guessing you must be Catholic... right?

When in the Hell/Purgatory area, feel free to visit the Den of Iniquity! Join the fun! 
http://forums.delphi.com/firefight/start 

I've got a dragon, and I'm not afraid to use it! 

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  From:  LADYRAVEN7   6/8/2001 2:35 pm  
To:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    (55 of 213)  
 
  29.55 in reply to 29.35  
 
Ruth, 
SO let me get this straight...First GOD creats Adam, then Eve and they are the only two people on the planet. Eve gives birth to Cain and Able, whom Cain murders. SO now it's just Adam, Eve and her son Able...so were they into incsest or what? Because how did they go on to populate the Earth? 
Ok....now God does it again...he is dissatified with humanity and destroys the Earth saving Noah and those aboard his arc. Now we arrive at Noah and his children getting off the Arc...and lo and behold it is just the one family. Kissing cousins aside, the incest comes into play agin? Because how did they populate the Earth? 

I was just curious since you say you LITERALLY beleive the ARC story. 

And yes, I am being trite on purpose.




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  From:  WendyJM1    6/9/2001 9:03 pm  
To:  Zebra30   (56 of 213)  
 
  29.56 in reply to 29.39  
 
Excellent Posts... 
"But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; and base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: that no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord" (1Cor.1:27-31). 
In Christ 
wendy 
www.delphi.com/realife1/start 





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  From:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   6/10/2001 6:16 am  
To:  WendyJM1    (57 of 213)  
 
  29.57 in reply to 29.56  
 
actually, first god creates Adam and Lilith, but Lilith refuse to be at the bottom when Adam and her have sex, so god casts her out( thus she's cast out for being a feminist) and after that god created Eve (actually Eva), but you don't read that in the bible .... ergo the bible is not trustable no matter who wrote it.

robrecht@realvamp.com 
 
  
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  From:  WendyJM1    6/10/2001 8:35 am  
To:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   (58 of 213)  
 
  29.58 in reply to 29.57  
 
"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor theives, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor -extortioners shall inherit the kingdom of God" (1Cor6:9 -10) 



 
  
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  From:  DJ Sterf (djsterf)   6/10/2001 10:32 pm  
To:  Dave Horne (DaveHorne711)   (59 of 213)  
 
  29.59 in reply to 29.1  
 
How can something come out of nothing? There has to be some media of creation here in this crazy Universe. How in the world are we all chemicals and just are magically born and have emotions, have concern for spirituality, have to have energy (food, drink), and so much more? God had to exist from the start to the finish, and he still will exist after the finish. :) 
- DJ Sterf


 
Click to Visit DJ Sterf.Com
Make Money While Surfing the Internet or Reading E-Mail!!! 
  
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   From:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    6/11/2001 1:14 pm  
To:  LADYRAVEN7   (60 of 213)  
 
  29.60 in reply to 29.55  
 
Well I'm not really worried about how the world was populated. So that isn't a question that I've asked God. I'm satisfied that He knew what He was doing when He did it. 
Ruth


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From:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    6/11/2001 1:20 pm  
To:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   (61 of 213)  
 
  29.61 in reply to 29.57  
 
If it was not in the Bible then it is not really a part of the Christian history. Lilith something that people have been trying to add to the bible to prove that God hates women. He doesn't hate women and this woman never existed. This is just more feminist garbage. 
Ruth


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  From:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   6/11/2001 1:53 pm  
To:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    (62 of 213)  
 
  29.62 in reply to 29.61  
 
no you foolish little girl, Lilith is in the Tenach, in the Thora (sp?) and it was removed by the (and I'm not sure about which one) Pope, because, quite simply, the Pope was hassled by noblewomen and nuns because your deity (note the lack of the word 'god') WAS considdered a woman hater. 
Doesn't it seem strange to you by the way, that if we are made in god's likeness, we are very imperfect ...... and how can a perfect being create imperfect beings in his own image ??? He didn't... 

Now don't get me wrong, I do actually believe in God (note the sudden use of the capital 'G'), just not in the 'all mighty, married virgin fertilizing (isn't that a sin by the way?), angels-that-are-named-'Lightbringer'('Lucifer', which is by the way also the dutch word for 'match') -that-turn-out-to-be creating, deity you seem to obey and serve so blindly.


 
  
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  From:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    6/11/2001 2:55 pm  
To:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   (63 of 213)  
 
  29.63 in reply to 29.62  
 
Well foolish boy if God did in fact create Lilith before Eve then it would have remained in the Bible. God is able to preserve His Word. You believe what you want to believe but I came into Christianity with eyes wide open. Just because I choose to trust my God does not mean that I am blind. It does mean that after years of God proving Himself to me I have found that He is worthy of my trust. 
Ruth


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  From:  LADYRAVEN7   6/11/2001 3:50 pm  
To:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    (64 of 213)  
 
  29.64 in reply to 29.60  
 
If you don't have an answer, all you have to do is say so, instead of shrugging it off as if it's a matter of small moment to you. 
PS...if that is your answer for for all things that are completely contradictory in the Bible, then all you are doing is comming off to the rest of us as a royal nut. Your reply really reminds me of the children of the world who, when they realize they are wrong, answer "SO WHAT!"




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  From:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    6/11/2001 4:02 pm  
To:  LADYRAVEN7   (65 of 213)  
 
  29.65 in reply to 29.64  
 
What would you rather me do show my ignorance by sitting here trying to out think God? I don't have an answer for you because I don't care to ask the question. It's that simple, at least I'm honest enough to say I don't know. 
The Bible does not contradict it's self and there are times when the Lord has shown me the answer. When you ask one of those questions I'll give you what the Lord has given me. If you choose to believe it great, if not so be it. 

If I try to make an infinite God make sense to a finite mind I am a royal nut. There are some things that will never make sense to me while I am in this mortal body. I'm comfortable with that, and I know that when God wants to reveal His secrets to me He will. 

Ruth


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  From:  LADYRAVEN7   6/11/2001 4:40 pm  
To:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    (66 of 213)  
 
  29.66 in reply to 29.65  
 
Well, believe it or not I respect your reply here. You don't pretend to be something you are not, and that in and of istself is quite refreshing. 



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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/11/2001 6:29 pm  
To:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   (67 of 213)  
 
  29.67 in reply to 29.62  
 
There is no need to come over to this forum engage people in dialogue and then call them offensive names. 
Obviously there are different opinions and obviously This forum does not support your views. Please conduct All posts in a friendly manner. 

It doesnt bother me that you and others make obnoxious posts because that is who you are and what you do. But out of consideration to others please keep the posting polite. 

When you resort to petty name calling it discredits you and any ideas that you are trying to present. 

This post is also generic to anyone posting here. 





David A. Brown
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  From:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   6/12/2001 3:42 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (68 of 213)  
 
  29.68 in reply to 29.67  
 
listen mister, christians have called me everything from a, misguided soul' to a 'wretched servant of Satan (hebrew: Shaithan= imposter)' and if I want to strike back by using such mild derivitory terms as 'foolish' or 'little' (girl is in this case not insulting, as Ruth is a female name). (by the way what would you call obnoxious?) 
Ruth here's some advice: if you want to be close to God you should become a Jew, after all THEY are God's people, Christians aren't mentioned as being God's people anywhere in the Bible and no matter what you should really read the Tenach (your 'old testament' or whatever you call the first part of the Bible over there) in Hebrew, you'll find hundreds of things that aren't in the Christian book and they're right there in the book of God's real people. 

And by the way, if God was almighty and he really wanted everyone to believe in him he'd just make everyone believe in him, but seeing as how he didn't, he must either: not be almighty and /or not want everyone to believe in him.


 
  
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  From:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    6/12/2001 9:14 am  
To:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   (69 of 213)  
 
  29.69 in reply to 29.68  
 
You are wrong about that Rob, God adopted us so we are in fact His children. Also God does want everyone to believe in Him but He loves us enough to allow us to choose. God wants us to love Him, if He doesn't give us the choice to believe then He isn't giving us the choice to love. 
Ruth 

PS: I wish I could read Hebrew for myself, but I do have a friend that does so if I have questions I know where to go for the answers.


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  From:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   6/12/2001 9:58 am  
To:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    (70 of 213)  
 
  29.70 in reply to 29.69  
 
well if he allows us to choose, but he punishes the wrong choice, then there is no love, only fear of punishment. 
so either: God is a tyrant who keeps up a false freedom -or- God is a liberal being who allows his children to choose for themselves and allows them into heaven even if they do not choose for him. 

Which one?


 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/12/2001 10:14 am  
To:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   (71 of 213)  
 
  29.71 in reply to 29.70  
 
The Choice is to Choose God or to Reject God. 
When you choose God, God honors that Choice and brings you into His presence (Heaven) forever. 
When you Choose to be separated from God, choosing to reject God, God also honors that choice. Hell is the place where Gods presence is not known the place where people Choose to go instead of Heaven. 

And now you find fault with God for giving you the freedom to make a Choice, and you find fault with God for honoring your Choice. The choice is yours and you like everyone will have to live with the decision you make. 





David A. Brown
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  From:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   6/12/2001 2:16 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (72 of 213)  
 
  29.72 in reply to 29.71  
 
ok, but then the question is: is Hell worse then Heaven? 
Is it a punishment?

 
  
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  From:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    6/12/2001 2:31 pm  
To:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   (73 of 213)  
 
  29.73 in reply to 29.70  
 
Neither. 
Deuteronomy 30:19-20 

"This day I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live and that you may love the LORD your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the LORD is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob." 

God has told us that He has given us a choice between life and death and He urges us to choose life. Ultimately it is our choice. 

Ruth


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How many old songs can you name? 
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  From:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    6/12/2001 2:45 pm  
To:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   (74 of 213)  
 
  29.74 in reply to 29.72  
 
Well a short description of what/who God is first. God is love, joy, and peace, just to name a few of His attributes. 
Hell is the complete absence of God. Therefore imagine an existance without ever feeling loved. Without ever feeling the joy that comes from hearing a child giggle. Or feeling the peace that comes from watching the sun set. 

My description is so horribly inadequate, I realize that, hell is such a horrid place nothing can really describe it. It's so much worse then anyone can possibly comprehend. Fortunately for Christians Jesus suffered the worse hell had to offer and gave that victory to us. 

Ruth


Recent Discussion Topics: 
How many old songs can you name? 
 Are you a oldie but goodie? Well come name some of those songs with us and let's meet each other.
 
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/12/2001 3:13 pm  
To:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   (75 of 213)  
 
  29.75 in reply to 29.72  
 
1 Corinthians 2:9 But as it is written (Isaiah 64:4), Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that Love Him.
Heaven is another Dimension. The human physical eye and ear cannot perceive Heaven. We as people cannot even imagine what Heaven is going to be like. Heaven is going to be More than anyone could ever imagine.

God is the God of All Mercy and Comfort All of Gods Mercy and Comfort are going to be in Heaven.

2 Corinthians 1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of Mercies, and the God of all Comfort.

Revelation 20:14,15 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Hell is away from the perceived presence of God. It is required that unclean items be burned in fire. People who remain unclean because they have Rejected the cleansing Blood of Jesus will be sent to the eternal lake of fire.

God has created the universe in which we live. We live in an ordered structured universe. Hell will have no structure, no order, and no comfort.

Theres an old saying this life is the only Heaven Unbelievers will ever know, and this life is the only Hell Christians will ever know.






David A. Brown
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  From:  Adrasteia & Lyrk (ToilnTrouble)   6/12/2001 10:22 pm  
To:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   (76 of 213)  
 
  29.76 in reply to 29.70  
 
Good question. 
If Hell exists, and we 'choose' eternal torment by sincerely following the 'wrong belief system', then I believe I would have a moral obligation to burn in hell, rather than accepting the cold comfort of a tyranical sadist.


When in the Hell/Purgatory area, feel free to visit the Den of Iniquity! Join the fun! 
http://forums.delphi.com/firefight/start 
I've got a dragon, and I'm not afraid to use it! 

Adrasteia & Lyrk: 
The Sapphic Spellcasters!
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/13/2001 10:20 am  
To:  Adrasteia & Lyrk (ToilnTrouble)   (77 of 213)  
 
  29.77 in reply to 29.76  
 
Hitler was sincere in the belief system that he chose and believed in. Sincerely wrong!



David A. Brown
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  From:  Zebra30   6/14/2001 12:04 am  
To:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    (78 of 213)  
 
  29.78 in reply to 29.61  
 
Actually Ruth, I'd read somewhere that Lilith was a female demon that was part of Jewish mysticism or the cabala (I hope I've got that right). Supposedy, she was the first wife of Adam who rebelled against both Adam and God in the garden of Eden and was subsequently expelled. She allegedly had conjugal relations with demons to which demonic children were born. These children were eventually destroyed by God or by someone else at His command. This enraged Lilith and she set out to destroy the children of mortal women. Jewish women as a result of a fear of Lilith kept talismans or amulets by their bedsides when they were about to give birth. I'm pretty sure that I've gotten this story twisted aroung somewhat or that I have only a part of it, but that in essence is what I read in this article. Also, there is a feminist musical festival bearing her (Lilith's) name that's quite popular in feminist circles. If what I have read is accurate, it kind of explains the feminist devotion to the destruction of the unborn. P.S. (By the way, I've created a new forum that I hope you and others will visit. It's called "Early Christianity and Today's (Contemporary)Society". Please visit at: __www.delphi.com/Zebra30/messages 
  
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  From:  Zebra30   6/14/2001 12:18 am  
To:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob) unread  (79 of 213)  
 
  29.79 in reply to 29.70  
 
I suppose that what you are talking about, Rob, is a "Caspar Milquetoast" kind of deity, a push-over, a wimp, a wishy-washy kind of 'god' that's so intimidated by His creation that He would allow us to get away with everything that we dare to do. You want this 'god' to then just look the other way and allow all of us into His heavenly kingdom without having to repent for anything. Following that kind of logic, God would have to allow tyrants like Hitler,Stalin, Saddam Hussein or any other despot or wrong-doer just because He's God. And I'd have to ask you this: why would you want to follow such a deity as that? Your 'god' is nothing but pablum, a mushroom that has nothing to do with us. I certainly wouldn't want to follow such a 'god' because he doesn't know what he's doing. 
  
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   From:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    6/14/2001 9:41 am  
To:  Zebra30   (80 of 213)  
 
  29.80 in reply to 29.78  
 
David explained this story as being Jewish folklore in a different post. It's occultic in origin. Whatever someone wants to label it I believe it's a lie of the enemy to discredit God's Word and to further his lie that God hates women. 
Ruth 

PS: Thanks for the info


Recent Discussion Topics: 
How many old songs can you name? 
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From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/14/2001 10:37 am  
To:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    (81 of 213)  
 
  29.81 in reply to 29.80  
 
Hi Ruth,
Thanks for the clarification. I was being too soft by calling it folklore. I agree it is Satanic in origin to provide disinformation. It has been interesting to read many of the Posts how people are willing to believe Anything but God, the Bible, and Jesus.

Moses didnt write it in the Bible so obviously it has no merit. I have heard about this for a long time but I have never seen it written in any document. I think it is a fable of fables.

**Here is the other post**
What you are attempting to quote is called Jewish folklore it is no more true than American folklore unless of course if you believe in the Giant Paul Bunion and his companion Babe the Blue Ox.

(New Testament)
1 Timothy 4:7 But refuse profane and old wives fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.

(Old Testament)
Lamentations 3:21-23 This I recall in my mind, therefore have I hope. It is the LORDs Mercies that we are not consumed, because His compassion fail not. They are new every morning: Great is Thy Faithfulness.

The Old and New Testament God is the same God. The Old Testament is also Full of Mercy and the New Testament is also full of wrath, Just read Revelation.






David A. Brown
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  From:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    6/14/2001 12:04 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (82 of 213)  
 
  29.82 in reply to 29.81  
 
David I've never really known where this lie came from, if it was something recent, folklore or actually incorporated in some type of religious beliefs. I just know that the women's lib camp have grabbed it and ran with it, spreading it around as though it were truth. I appreciate the enlightenment on the facts of it's origin. People are so ready to believe that God is evil and the devil is good. God of course told us that this would be happening so we can't be too surprised. 
Thanks, 
Ruth


Recent Discussion Topics: 
How many old songs can you name? 
 Are you a oldie but goodie? Well come name some of those songs with us and let's meet each other.
 
- In Sheepgate
 
 
 



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Never be afraid to try something new.
Remember, amateurs built the ark.
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  From:  DW (DeathWish123)   6/14/2001 12:28 pm  
To:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   (83 of 213)  
 
  29.83 in reply to 29.72  
 
You goto heaven for the weather and hell for the conversation

---------------------------------- 

W.W.I.D 

What would I do?  
  
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  From:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   6/14/2001 1:22 pm  
To:  DW (DeathWish123)   (84 of 213)  
 
  29.84 in reply to 29.83  
 
Hey Dw how are you? .... 

 
  
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  From:  DW (DeathWish123)   6/14/2001 5:56 pm  
To:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   (85 of 213)  
 
  29.85 in reply to 29.84  
 
Good. 
Et tu, Robai?

---------------------------------- 

W.W.I.D 

What would I do? 
 
  
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  From:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   6/14/2001 11:01 pm  
To:  DW (DeathWish123)   (86 of 213)  
 
  29.86 in reply to 29.85  
 
Tout va bien.

 
  
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  From:  Adrasteia & Lyrk (ToilnTrouble)   6/15/2001 8:28 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (87 of 213)  
 
  29.87 in reply to 29.77  
 
Yeah. He seemed to think he was a good Christian. 
But seriously, are you actually equating a man who slaughtered millions with the average, peace-loving 
Buddhist? Or Muslim? Or Witch?

When in the Hell/Purgatory area, feel free to visit the Den of Iniquity! Join the fun! 
http://forums.delphi.com/firefight/start 

I've got a dragon, and I'm not afraid to use it! 

Adrasteia & Lyrk: 
The Sapphic Spellcasters!
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/15/2001 8:37 am  
To:  Adrasteia & Lyrk (ToilnTrouble)   (88 of 213)  
 
  29.88 in reply to 29.87  
 
Hitler and his Nazis are Pagan! 
The Swastika is a Pagan symbol not a Christian symbol. 






David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  Adrasteia & Lyrk (ToilnTrouble)   6/15/2001 9:45 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (89 of 213)  
 
  29.89 in reply to 29.88  
 
According to Hitler's own words, he was Christian. Do I believe he was Christian? No. Of course not. But his views are antithetical to any Pagan belief system I know of, with the possible exception of radical Odinism. So, Hitler was no more a 'Pagan like me' than he was a 'Christian like you' - agreed? 
Back to the point... are you comparing a mass-murderer of historic proportions to a law-abiding, peace loving Muslim, or Mormon, or Pagan? 

When in the Hell/Purgatory area, feel free to visit the Den of Iniquity! Join the fun! 
http://forums.delphi.com/firefight/start 

I've got a dragon, and I'm not afraid to use it! 

Adrasteia & Lyrk: 
The Sapphic Spellcasters!
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/15/2001 1:21 pm  
To:  Adrasteia & Lyrk (ToilnTrouble)   (90 of 213)  
 
  29.90 in reply to 29.89  
 
Here are a couple of books:
Both are available at www.ChristianBook.com 
Hitlers Cross {Swastika, includes many Pictures of Anti/Non-Christian activity}
ISBN 0802435831

Dietrich Bonhoeffer: Selected Writings
ISBN 1570751943

Dietrich Bonhoeffer is a Christian he was also Arrested by the Nazis imprisoned and later hung like any Christian that stood up against Hitler.

Hitler attempted to Redefine use and Manipulate the Christian Church in many aspects he was very successful. We Christians can learn a valuable lesson from this. Not to let other people define who we are and not to enter into arrangements with non-Christians.

Proverb 25:26 A righteous man falling down before the wicked is as a troubled fountain, and a corrupt spring.

We both agree that there is right behavior and wrong behavior in the world we just disagree on what is the standard of righteousness. To the Pagan righteousness is derived from a self consciousness. To the Christian righteousness is the standard of God and is written down in His words in the Bible.






David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  M_DAuvergne   6/15/2001 7:59 pm  
To:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    (91 of 213)  
 
  29.91 in reply to 29.9  
 
You are correct, only you are not. 
You see, both of you are missing the point. Man begat god. Therefore, god is as fickle and feirce as man has ever been. Why? Because nothing is perfect in this universe, and the only infallable, universal force is nature. Is not god under the force of nature, since nature begat man?

Je te remercie! 

~M. D'Auvergne
 
  
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  From:  Zebra30   6/16/2001 7:18 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (92 of 213)  
 
  29.92 in reply to 29.90  
 
Hi, David! This is Zebra. I just want to know where you've got that information about Lilith listed. I'd really be interested in reading it. 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/16/2001 7:51 pm  
To:  Zebra30   (93 of 213)  
 
  29.93 in reply to 29.92  
 
Actually I learned about it in a College Art class. 
I couldnt believe it when I heard it, it really took me by storm the fact that someone tweeked the creation account of the Bible. 

The (non-Christian) Professor in his same statement said that it was Jewish Folklore. Since then I have heard from several sources Jewish and Christian alike that it is Jewish Folklore. I have never had the desire to track it down beyond that, I thought it was too silly to take serious. The Bible is very complete about the creation of Man and Woman. 

The reason I was so surprised is that I couldnt believe that someone would make up stories/lies about the Bible, but back then I didnt truly believe that Satan existed either. 






David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  M_DAuvergne   6/17/2001 8:17 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (94 of 213)  
 
  29.94 in reply to 29.93  
 
By the by...what bible do you read?

Je te remercie! 
~M. D'Auvergne
 
  
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  From:  DW (DeathWish123)   6/17/2001 4:09 pm  
To:  M_DAuvergne unread  (95 of 213)  
 
  29.95 in reply to 29.94  
 
Hey, I've got a copy of the "Steal this Book" Bible edition.

---------------------------------- 
W.W.I.D 

What would I do? 

Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, because I am the baddest mother fucker in the valley.
 
  
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  From:  Zebra30   6/17/2001 9:00 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (96 of 213)  
 
  29.96 in reply to 29.93  
 
Hi,David. Something that I've discovered, or rather was revealed to me fairly recently by, I'm sure, the Holy Spirit is that all the religions of the world today are just corruptions of the original (meaning the Judeo-Christian faith as revealed in the Holy Bible). Your account of how you first became acquainted with the legend of Lilith rather confirms that. When you think about it, all the (non-JudeoChristian) religions of our world emphasize works instead of grace. Or they substitute man's wisdom instead of the revealed will of God. And also the religions of the world fall right in line with the fallen nature of mankind. Wouldn't you agree? Come to think of it, that at least in part explains why religion has been involved in some of history's bloodiest conflicts. Not to digress, but if you take a look at the book of Revelation chapter 17 beginning with verse 1 where it describes the judgment of the great whore, you'll notice that it says that the woman was drunken with the blood of the saints and the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. What little I have read of church history confirms in frightening detail the effect that apostate religion has had (and continues to have) on the world so some of our critics are at least partially right when they blame religion for many of the bloodiest conflicts in world history. They're just wrong in blaming ALL religion for ALL the conflicts. The Lilith story is,as you've said, just another weapon in Satan's long-running war against God and man. (By the way, is there a way that you could delete the foul language that some of your correspondents insist on using? I noticed a word posted by a person named DW that usually gets bleeped or blocked out on boards such as this but this one slipped by). 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/17/2001 9:58 pm  
To:  Zebra30   (97 of 213)  
 
  29.97 in reply to 29.96  
 
Hi, Yes I totally agree with you that ALL of the worlds religions are Counterfeits of the truth of Jesus!
This is because Satan is a counterfeiter, he is trying to be like God (Jesus) so he steals from Jesus. In Revelation Satan wants to mark his followers on the forehead, but this is another satanic counterfeit of what God has already done for real.

Ezekiel 9:4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

Revelation 13:6 And he (Satan) causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark, in their right hand or in their foreheads.

This past summer I started to do a bunch of research about the religions of the world particularly the ancient religions and found them to be Very similar and very Satanic. For instance most of them involve animal sacrifices. The Bible uses animal sacrifice to point to Jesus, therefore harmless loving animals like lambs & doves are sacrificed as types of Jesus. In the ancient religions horses & people are the most common sacrifices. Jews were forbidden to own horses because they are instruments of pride and warfare and God forbid the sacrificing of people, but the satanic religions sacrifice both. Also many religions draw a circle and then quarter it, draw two lines so there are four parts of the circle this and also standing or sitting and facing in the four directions of the world, one at a time, east, west, north, south is worshiping the god of this world who the Bible tells us is Satan.

2 Corinthians 4:3,4 But if our Gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the Glorious Gospel of Christ, who is the Image of God, should shine unto them.

About the profanity, I did see it and I Apologize. I started to edit it then decided that I didnt want to get into an edit Battle which some seem to enjoy. So I decided for now that it is his name and his language so he can represent himself that way and people will see that Christians are Different then the world. 




David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  Dr_Shock   6/18/2001 2:44 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (98 of 213)  
 
  29.98 in reply to 29.97  
 
As if you Christians didn't once practice HUMAN sacrifice on a regular basis? Several times in the Bible it is stated how God loves the smell of burning flesh. God doesn't even seem to have a problem with a man sacrificing his only child: 
Judges 11:30-31 And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord: "If you give the Ammonites into my hands, whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the Lord's, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering. 

Jephthah did indeed triumph over the Ammonites, and as fate would have it, when he returned home he was greeted by his only daughter. 

Judges 11:34 When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of tambourines! She was an only child. Except for her he had neither son nor daughter. 

The Bible then goes on the record that Jephthah kept his vow to God, and did indeed sacrifice his only daughter. 

Judges 11:39 After the two months, she returned to her father and he did to her as he had vowed... 

Despite being involved in such a reprehensible act, Jephthah still found a place in the "Hall of Faith" in the New Testament (Hebrews 11:32). 

And what about murder? Oops... Seems God broke his own law there, too... 

In Exodus 20:13, God explicitly forbids murder. 

Exodus 20:13 Thou shalt not kill. 

Later in the Bible, however, God orders the Levites to kill three thousand men, as punishment for making a golden calf. 

Exodus 32:27 And he said unto them, Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbor. 

Why could God not simply kill the guilty himself, as he did with Korah? (Numbers 16:32) 

And then we have all the historical accounts of Christian murder such as the Burning Times, the Inquisition and the Crusades. Perhaps you should learn about your own history before judging others as "Satanic"? 



-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/18/2001 8:56 am  
To:  Dr_Shock   (99 of 213)  
 
  29.99 in reply to 29.98  
 
Satanist love to teach that Jephthat killed his daughter. He did not! 
The Cults love to teach this (including the Freemasons) as a way to oppress women.

The Bible gives Life and Freedom!
Cults Oppression and Death!

Judges 11:40 That the daughters of Israel went yearly to lament the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite four days in a year.

They went yearly to comfort her because she would not have children. The Burnt offering Vow is a term of Consicration to be set aside. She was set aside from Marrige.

Judges 11:30 .. And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: And she Knew not a man, And it (being a maiden) was a custom in Israel.

*Note Jephthat was not a Levitical Priest, All Sacrifices were brought to the Preist and the Priest preformed the sacrifice not the people. If Jephthat was to physically sacrifice his daughter he would have to bring her to the Priests and they would NEVER have done it.

Jephthat is in (Hebrews 11:32) the Hall of Faith because he kept his Vow and did not have his only child marry and therefore he had no future generations.

The lesson of the event is to not make vows!

*Note God Never instructed him to make a vow, he did it on his own. God would have given him the victory in the war w/o a vow, he made a foolish vow. Had he not made the vow he would have had grandchildren.






David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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   From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/18/2001 9:07 am  
To:  Dr_Shock   (100 of 213)  
 
  29.100 in reply to 29.98  
 
<<Judges 11:30-31 And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord: "If you give the Ammonites into my hands, whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the Lord's, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.>> 
*The King James Bible does not have the word sacrifice instead it says offer. 

The Bible also refers to Tithing, Giving, Service, Worship, Faith etc. as an Offer and as a Sacrifice pleasing and acceptable to God. All of these Sacrifices are consecration sacrifices and Take place without Fire. 





David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
 
From:  Adrasteia & Lyrk (ToilnTrouble)   6/18/2001 9:38 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (101 of 213)  
 
  29.101 in reply to 29.97  
 
How can other religions be bad copies of Christianity when many of them predate Christianity by thousands of years?

When in the Hell/Purgatory area, feel free to visit the Den of Iniquity! Join the fun! 
http://forums.delphi.com/firefight/start 

I've got a dragon, and I'm not afraid to use it! 

Adrasteia & Lyrk: 
The Sapphic Spellcasters!
 
  
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  From:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    6/18/2001 9:48 am  
To:  M_DAuvergne   (102 of 213)  
 
  29.102 in reply to 29.91  
 
Wrong God created man. God has existed since before time, He has no beginning and no end. Man was made in God's image, not the other way around. 
Ruth


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  From:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   6/18/2001 11:44 am  
To:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    (103 of 213)  
 
  29.103 in reply to 29.102  
 
enough with all the blah blah, Judgement day is at the end of times and after that you are punished or rewarded for eternity, is it just me or is there a continuity glitch? and don't gimme any 'God is above time'-crap 'cause 'he' isn't.

 
  
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  From:  DW (DeathWish123)   6/18/2001 11:55 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (104 of 213)  
 
  29.104 in reply to 29.99  
 
Yeah, but there is plenty of other passages in the bible that claims women are inferior to men. 
Genesis 3:16 

Now, since you are such a biblethumper, you can quote exactly what this passage says. And you says the Bible promotes freedom?

---------------------------------- 

W.W.I.D 

What would I do? 

Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, because I am the baddest mother in the valley.
 
  
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  From:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    6/18/2001 1:02 pm  
To:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   (105 of 213)  
 
  29.105 in reply to 29.103  
 
You don't believe that God is above time and it takes faith to believe that but it doesn't make it true. 
The heart of the matter is that Jesus loves you Rob. He loves you enough to extend to you an invitation to spend eternity with Him. It's up to you what you do with that invitation. 

Ruth


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  From:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   6/18/2001 1:15 pm  
To:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    (106 of 213)  
 
  29.106 in reply to 29.105  
 
If Jesus loved me he'd keep his fanboy (and girls) away from me, and he would force me or anyone to believe in him ... and yes I do considder threaths of hell to be forcing ...

 
  
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  From:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    6/18/2001 1:37 pm  
To:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   (107 of 213)  
 
  29.107 in reply to 29.106  
 
By "fanboy" I'm guessing you mean Christians. Have you ever thought that the reason you keep meeting up with so many Christians is because God is trying to get your attention? God doesn't want you to live without Him and He definately doesn't want you to die without Him. Hell is not a threat it's a fact my friend. Yeah sometimes we Christians focus to much on the afterlife but God has so much to offer us on this side of the grave. There is so much more to God then just heaven or hell. 
Ruth


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  From:  DW (DeathWish123)   6/18/2001 1:48 pm  
To:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    (108 of 213)  
 
  29.108 in reply to 29.107  
 
Hell is a very real fact. I should know. I'm destined to go there. See, I know now there is no means of redemption for me. So I figure, if you're gonna miss getting into heaven, why miss by inches?

---------------------------------- 
W.W.I.D 

What would I do? 

Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, because I am the baddest mother in the valley.
 
  
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  From:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    6/18/2001 1:56 pm  
To:  DW (DeathWish123)   (109 of 213)  
 
  29.109 in reply to 29.108  
 
There is a means of redemption for you, His name is Jesus. There is nothing that you could have done that could take that away. As long as you are still breathing. 
Ruth


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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/18/2001 2:55 pm  
To:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    (110 of 213)  
 
  29.110 in reply to 29.109  
 
Well said Ruth, 
DW Jesus Loves you! 






David A. Brown
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  From:  DW (DeathWish123)   6/18/2001 4:45 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (111 of 213)  
 
  29.111 in reply to 29.110  
 
Well, if he loves me, then the feeling is NOT mutual. 
Now, what does Genesis 3:16 say? Or are you afraid of saying one thing, then the bible contradicting you?

---------------------------------- 

W.W.I.D 

What would I do? 

Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, because I am the baddest mother in the valley.
 
  
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  From:  Zebra30   6/18/2001 9:43 pm  
To:  DW (DeathWish123)   (112 of 213)  
 
  29.112 in reply to 29.111  
 
Well I'm sorry that you feel that way,DW. Certainly He loves you. Maybe it's because you and the Saviour have a very different definition of what constitutes "love". And as for that passage that you quoted out of context, it doesn't say anything about women being inferior to men. It merely means that because of the Fall that things were going to be much different and much more difficult from here on out. It means that relationships between the sexes were going to be more strained. It meant that women were going to have difficulties in bearing children where we weren't supposed to before the fall. Labor pains, for instance, were never supposed to be associated with having a baby. But I suspect that this makes little difference to you, DW, because it sounds as though you just wants to fight for the sake of fighting. But I'm curious. Why do you keep coming to this board if you find our faith so distasteful? Could it be that, despite your bluster, something is beginning to get to you? Could it be that, as (I think)David tried to tell you, that God is trying to get your attention? I wouldn't be so anxious to go to hell, DW, because when you stand before the Lord on Judgment Day and you see how many times you had to get right with Him and you rejected Him each time, you've got nobody but yourself to blame. Also, I've got to warn you that hell ain't gonna be no tea party. It will be one long, unending nightmare. I like to compare it to an eternal dentist's appointment (that's how scared I am of dentists {haha!}). So, I hope that you will think seriously about what I've said and think it over. 
 
  
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  From:  DW (DeathWish123)   6/18/2001 10:38 pm  
To:  Zebra30   (113 of 213)  
 
  29.113 in reply to 29.112  
 
On one side, there is the god, who may, or may not live. This side says that no matter what I do, this god still loves me and promises me eternal hapiness. 
And on the other, a force that I know exists. Still exists, and plays a great part in my life. The void. Darkness. Giving into sin and temptation. The pleasures of the flesh. 

So either I be a good little boy, and obey god's laws, which go against man's instincts. Look, but don't touch. Touch, but don't taste. Taste, but don't swallow. One very good example. If all of a sudden the final rapture comes tommorrow, do you realize how many male teenagers are going to burn in hell for giving into Lust and masturbating? 

Or I could heed my calling, and embrace the darkness. Embrace my destiny. I guess I am what you could call god's messenger. I am judge, jury, and executioner. I'll weed out the wicked in the name of god. But everyone is guilty of some crime. I'm the four horsemen rolled into one body. I am the nescissary evil needed for good to exist. 

Can you tell I wasn't loved as a child?

---------------------------------- 

W.W.I.D 

What would I do? 

Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, because I am the baddest mother in the valley.
 
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  From:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   6/18/2001 11:10 pm  
To:  ALL   (115 of 213)  
 
  29.115 in reply to 29.114  
 
you know... I've found an error in Fundies Xtian thinking .... They always say "believe in God or you'll go to Hell", but if you don't believe in God ... you're not afraid of Hell. 
Much more I'd rather go to Hell and endure endless torment, than sit at the table of an unjust God.


 
  
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  From:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    6/19/2001 9:07 am  
To:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   (116 of 213)  
 
  29.116 in reply to 29.115  
 
"Much more I'd rather go to Hell and endure endless torment, than sit at the table of an unjust God." 
I would to but then again when you go to hell you are sitting at the table of an unjust god. 

On second thought Jehovah God tempers justice with mercy. So therefore when you think about it He is unjust in that He doesn't give us what His justice demands. He doesn't give us justice, He gives us Mercy. 

Ruth 




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  From:  Adrasteia & Lyrk (ToilnTrouble)   6/19/2001 10:21 am  
To:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    (117 of 213)  
 
  29.117 in reply to 29.116  
 
He gives mercy to those who worship him, unimaginable, endless pain to those who don't. That kind of mercy makes Stalin look like Mother Theresa.

When in the Hell/Purgatory area, feel free to visit the Den of Iniquity! Join the fun! 
http://forums.delphi.com/firefight/start 

I've got a dragon, and I'm not afraid to use it! 

Adrasteia & Lyrk: 
The Sapphic Spellcasters!
 
  
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  From:  Dr_Shock   6/19/2001 12:12 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (118 of 213)  
 
  29.118 in reply to 29.99  
 
You're right. The word "offering" is used... As in "burnt offering" or sacrifice. There is no other connotation for "burnt offering" in Hebrew except for the term "sacrifice". Everyone is always making "burnt offerings" to the Hebrew God all through the Bible. I doubt these offerings are being "set aside" since it gives description of sacrifice many times. Perhpas you should study some more Hebrew. 
Your Judges 11:40 quote, if you read further, shows that the women of Israel are mourning a death. Traditionally, only women mourned death as men had better things to do. 

And as for your Judges 11:30 quote, God would only accept virgin sacrifices. In fact, all the quotes you used are before (earlier in the Bible) the ones which I used. You are trying to preempt my quotes with things which happened before the sacrifice. A poor choice. 

Also, if you had a personal vow to God, you did the sacrifice yourself. Priests were not "middle men" in such circumstances since the vow was between you and God, not you, God and the priest. Priests only did ritualisitc sacrifices on certian days and for certian occasions. Anything else you had to do yourself. Why do you think you used to be able to buy sacrificial goats and fowl outside of many temples back in the day? 

You still didn't account for the Crusades, Inquisition and Burning Times, however. Funny that. 

I do so love how, to you, everyone who is not Christian is automatically a Satanist. You really don't like it when your own book is used against you, do you?


-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
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  From:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    6/19/2001 12:25 pm  
To:  Adrasteia & Lyrk (ToilnTrouble)   (119 of 213)  
 
  29.119 in reply to 29.117  
 
"He gives mercy to those who worship him, unimaginable, endless pain to those who don't." 
You have to choose between the two. It's an invitation to spend eternity in God's kingdom or outside of it. Are you saying that God should not have control over who comes into His house? So if I invite you over to my house you would think that I was an unreasonable hostess if I didn't allow you to do whatever you wanted to do in my house? It would be unfair of me to expect you to take your muddy shoes off and leave them at the door? 

It seems to me that the enemy of God has people focused to much on what God says that can't do and they are not even seeing all of the things that God says we can do. "God won't let me take my sin into heaven" instead of "God has provided all of His rightiousness through Christ, all I have to do is accept Him as payment for my sin". God made it so easy to enter into heaven, it's a done deal, a free gift, you pay nothing now and nothing later. Your bill has been paid in full and all you have to do is receive it. 

Other gods say that what you do here will come back to you in threes. What you do in this life dictates what you come back as so if you are a mean person you will come back as a lower life form. Performance, performance, performance. 

Ruth


Recent Discussion Topics: 
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   From:  Adrasteia & Lyrk (ToilnTrouble)   6/19/2001 12:44 pm  
To:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    (120 of 213)  
 
  29.120 in reply to 29.119  
 
Adrasteia; 
It's not so much what is required to get into heaven in the fundamentalist model as what other destination is available. 
You would certainly be within your rights to not let me in due to my dirty shoes, but would it be acceptable for you to light me up like a muman torch for the transgression? Hardly. 
What it boils down to is this: worship God (the right one, the right way) or burn in Hell forever. Spiritual blackmail to appease an infinitely vain and cruel God. 
In my experience, that is totally inconsistent with Divinity and falls considerably short of even the human measure of morality. It's one of the central reasons I could not bear the burden of fundamentalist Christianity. 
I am certain at the core of my soul that such an arrangment does not exist, but if Jesus himself told me that this was the way of things, I would still have to decline, since I could not accept this terrible gift in good conscience.


When in the Hell/Purgatory area, feel free to visit the Den of Iniquity! Join the fun! 
http://forums.delphi.com/firefight/start 

I've got a dragon, and I'm not afraid to use it! 

Adrasteia & Lyrk: 
The Sapphic Spellcasters!
 
  
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From:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    6/19/2001 1:29 pm  
To:  Adrasteia & Lyrk (ToilnTrouble)   (121 of 213)  
 
  29.121 in reply to 29.120  
 
Well you certainly have the right to make that decision. 
Ruth


Recent Discussion Topics: 
How many old songs can you name? 
 Are you a oldie but goodie? Well come name some of those songs with us and let's meet each other.
 
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/19/2001 10:02 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (122 of 213)  
 
  29.122 in reply to 29.118  
 
God does Not accept Any Human sacrifices virgin or not. 
God is the one who creates life he doesnt want man ending it. 

Only Levitical Priests could make an offering to God. And they could only offer Bulls, Goats, sheep, or doves/pigeons. Because all of these items are Types of Jesus the One and Only True Sacrifice for the Sins of Mankind. 





David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  Zebra30   6/19/2001 10:53 pm  
To:  Adrasteia & Lyrk (ToilnTrouble)   (123 of 213)  
 
  29.123 in reply to 29.120  
 
What you don't seem to understand is God's ways are not our ways. Are you saying that you are wiser than God? I would refain from casting aspertions on our Creator because we in the human race can't seem to accept the simplest evidence of creation. For instance, we are told in the scriptures that man (meaning man and woman) was created in the image of God and that we were created after His likeness. We were also told to have dominion (meaning control or stewardship) over His creation. We also read in Genesis that God told our first parents that if they ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil that they would die. Are you saying that God was unjust in passing sentence? He gave them a choice, either to eat from the tree of life or to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. That's what we're talking about. Choice, which is a word that I'm hearing more and more these days. In other areas of life we scream for the "right to choose", be it in abortion, smoking marijuana, sexual freedom,etc. We know the consequences of misbehavior which is why we spend so much time and money trying to evade the consequences of our choices. What I think I hear you saying is that we have the right to expect no negative results of our choices. The Bible tells us that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Is it God's fault that we refuse to accept the pardon freely offered through the shed blood of Jesus?  
  
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  From:  Zebra30   6/19/2001 11:01 pm  
To:  Adrasteia & Lyrk (ToilnTrouble)   (124 of 213)  
 
  29.124 in reply to 29.117  
 
Another point: No, He doesn't give "unimaginable torture" to those who refuse to bow the knee to Him. He just grants you your fondest wish, to be forever separated from Him. He doesn't force His will upon anyone, to make you or me worship Him. He merely makes you sorry that you didn't. 
  
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  From:  Zebra30   6/19/2001 11:26 pm  
To:  DW (DeathWish123)   (125 of 213)  
 
  29.125 in reply to 29.113  
 
Obviously DW, you consider all that David, Ruth and I as well as others on this board some kind of colossal joke. Apparently, you think that Hell is just going to party time, eternally. Yes, I know quite a number of teenage boys and grown men who are going to be spending eternity in the lake of fire because they wanted to go there. Quite a number of girls and women are going to wind up there, too. They'll be spending eternity in a place where "the worm dieth not, and the fire is never quenched", (Mark 9, verse 44). They'll be spending it in a place where they have all their fleshly desires, but they'll never be able to have them satisfied. They (or maybe I should have said you, since you said that you follow the Prince of Darkness) be spending that time looking back on those times when they could have chosen to get it right, but instead chose to live in rebellion. But you just go on ahead, DW. You just keep going on your own rebellious way because on that day when you are standing before the bar of justice of the Supreme Court of the Universe, I'm afraid that that's one you'll be doing by yourself. Your scads of girlfriends, your buddies, your marijuana or whatever you think is so important right now won't be there to help you. This is one you'll have to make by yourself. You will want to repent by then but, unfortunately, it will be much too late.  
  
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  From:  Adrasteia & Lyrk (ToilnTrouble)   6/20/2001 2:27 am  
To:  Zebra30   (126 of 213)  
 
  29.126 in reply to 29.123  
 
First off, let me say that we don't believe in the God of the Bible, so I don't think that I am questioning the wisdom 
and or morality of my creator. But, in the event we were proven wrong, we both feel that yes, eternal punshment is unjust. Burning in unquenchable fire is not a just punishment for being born human. The Bible as I understand it is pretty clear on the alleged nature of Hell, and it's not a pretty picture. And it is the prescribed punishment, according to the fundamentalist 
model, of being human. In order to accept this version of salvation, we must accept that we deserve eternal punishment for the sin of not dying before the age of accountability. Yes, if this were truly the nature of Divinity than I would be wiser by far. So would an 8 year old child. But luckily it's not.

When in the Hell/Purgatory area, feel free to visit the Den of Iniquity! Join the fun! 
http://forums.delphi.com/firefight/start 

I've got a dragon, and I'm not afraid to use it! 

Adrasteia & Lyrk: 
The Sapphic Spellcasters!
 
  
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  From:  Dr_Shock   6/20/2001 3:36 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (127 of 213)  
 
  29.127 in reply to 29.122  
 
Anyone could make an offering to God. Yes, the Priests usually did it as was accepted at the time, but, as with Jewish and pre-Jewish tradition, if you had a pact with God it was your business and yours alone.


-The Mad Dr. Shock 
  
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  From:  Zebra30   6/20/2001 9:47 pm  
To:  Adrasteia & Lyrk (ToilnTrouble)   (128 of 213)  
 
  29.128 in reply to 29.126  
 
What you seem to be overlooking, ladies, is that you're not being sent to Hell for being human. You go there because you want to remain separated from God. After all, He's just granting you your wish. You just said that you don't believe in the God of the Bible. Also, you're judging God by entirely humanistic standards. I wouldn't do that because when we attempt to pit our abyssmally finite understanding against the God of the universe, we lose each time. 
  
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  From:  DW (DeathWish123)   6/21/2001 12:01 am  
To:  Zebra30   (129 of 213)  
 
  29.129 in reply to 29.125  
 
No, I don't take EVERYONE here as a joke. A few people I respect. But Zebra, chances are, you are going to end up in hell along with me. And of course the worm will "dieth not". Its already dead. 
---------------------------------- 

W.W.I.D 

What would I do? 

Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, because I am the baddest mother in the valley. 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited 6/21/2001 3:03:46 AM ET by DEATHWISH123 
  
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  From:  DW (DeathWish123)   6/21/2001 12:02 am  
To:  Dr_Shock   (130 of 213)  
 
  29.130 in reply to 29.127  
 
And if only priests could make sacrafices, then how did Cain and Abel make theirs?

---------------------------------- 
W.W.I.D 

What would I do? 

Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, because I am the baddest mother in the valley.
 
  
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  From:  Dr_Shock   6/21/2001 8:50 am  
To:  DW (DeathWish123)   (131 of 213)  
 
  29.131 in reply to 29.130  
 
Well, this all took place long after Cain and Abel. However, in the Book of Seth, one of the Gnostic texts, Adam informs his third son that a man's relationship with God can have no middle man such as a priest.


-The Mad Dr. Shock 
  
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  From:  Adrasteia & Lyrk (ToilnTrouble)   6/21/2001 9:33 am  
To:  Zebra30   (132 of 213)  
 
  29.132 in reply to 29.128  
 
But people DON'T go there because they want to remain seperated from God. How can you rebel against something you don't believe? They go there in your scenario because they honestly, fervently, believe in another God, or no God at all. How can that be justified? It can't. 
No matter how many cop-outs you can come up with about our finite understanding. I understand the Divine is far more advanced than I could ever hope to be. However, in your scenario, God is far more vain, petty, and cruel than even the least advanced human. Ad we're just addressing the Hell issue here, never mind the murderous warmonger of the OT. 

When in the Hell/Purgatory area, feel free to visit the Den of Iniquity! Join the fun! 
http://forums.delphi.com/firefight/start 

I've got a dragon, and I'm not afraid to use it! 

Adrasteia & Lyrk: 
The Sapphic Spellcasters!
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/21/2001 9:52 am  
To:  DW (DeathWish123)   (133 of 213)  
 
  29.133 in reply to 29.129  
 
Zebra30, Myself, and All Christians will be in Heaven! This is called the Blessed Assurance of the Believer. 
We know that we will be in Heaven because of what Jesus did for us on the Cross and at His Resurrection, not for what we can do. Christians have faith in Jesus not in ourselves like the pagan. 

God does wage war. He wages war with unrighteousness and He wages it to Win! God has Already Won the war against unrighteousness. Hell is prepared for the unrighteous and Heaven is prepared for the righteous in Christ Jesus. 

The choice remains for each person to choose which side they are on, righteous or unrighteousness. 






David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  DW (DeathWish123)   6/21/2001 12:45 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (134 of 213)  
 
  29.134 in reply to 29.133  
 
Actually David, 99.9% of all chrisitans own an object that, according to the Christian church, will send you straight to hell. In fact, nobody ever has only only one.

---------------------------------- 
W.W.I.D 

What would I do? 

Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, because I am the baddest mother in the valley.
 
  
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  From:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   6/21/2001 12:59 pm  
To:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    (135 of 213)  
 
  29.135 in reply to 29.9  
 
The God of the Bible is the only true God. He is not a irascible, vindictive, fierce and ever fickle or changeful master. He has set everything down in His Word and He will not deviate from what is written there. 
Since you stated in your following post that god did indeed write the bible THROUGH men, they you are going to have to accept the fact that your statement was wrong in itself. You can't have it both ways. the god of the old testament is INDEED, as stated many times both plainly and in allegory, "irascible, vindictive, fierce and ever fickle". If you doubt this than you must not have read any of th OT. The writers often BRAG about how vengeful, spiteful and fickle god is.

I don't have quite the hard line as Dave has, but if you want to discuss the bible, then you are just going to have to be TRUTHFUL about it. Right now you are either a little confused or in denial.




 
  
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  From:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   6/22/2001 5:29 am  
To:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    (136 of 213)  
 
  29.136 in reply to 29.49  
 
You can't get closer then John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 
Black and white God Himself saying that it's His way or no way.

Uhh, sorry. "John" was written over a century AFTER Jesus' death, and it was written by someone else besides John. So right there you are AT LEAST reading 3rd hand information, not to mention the scores of translations and re-writes.

Careful what you quote god as saying, you might piss him off and he CAN be vengeful...

;0)






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  From:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   6/22/2001 5:42 am  
To:  Ruth (RUTHMARX)    (137 of 213)  
 
  29.137 in reply to 29.65  
 
The Bible does not contradict it's self 
Wow, you are really grasping here. There are thousands of contradictions. Why? Because the bible was written over thousands of years by many different peoples and cultures. OF COURSE there are contradictions.

Let's start with an easy one: The lord tells Moses "Thou shalt not kill". Yet there are countless accountings of the lord instructing his people to kill. One of the most notable was when he instructed a poor believer to sacrifice his daughter for guaranteeing a victory in battle - where he was instructed to kill many. In itself, the New Testament is a contradiction of the Old Testament, both in philosophy and prophecy.

Try reading them. ALL of them, not just the hi-lighted passages that your pastor tells you to read and makes you feel good.

Cheers.






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Edited 6/22/01 8:47:20 AM ET by SEABREN 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/22/2001 8:50 am  
To:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   (138 of 213)  
 
  29.138 in reply to 29.137  
 
The Bible is Absolutely Complete, Authentic, written by Eyewitnesses and Without Contradiction. 
Please See the threads Septuagint and Dead Sea Scrolls and Jesus in the Old Testament 

The Bible is the Word of God!!! 





David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   6/22/2001 10:25 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (139 of 213)  
 
  29.139 in reply to 29.138  
 
or so you claim, but what do you have to support your claim?

 
  
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   From:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   6/22/2001 10:49 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (140 of 213)  
 
  29.140 in reply to 29.138  
 
Just HOW can it be "complete" when it was ASSEMBLED by different men at different times, giving the different versions? 
When you say "complete", what do you mean? Between the different versions there are books left out that the others include, so NONE can be "complete" by any definition. Add to that the fact that in order to make ANY of the versions that are around today, many of the original books were left out for various reasons. 

Sorry, "complete" it cannot be. It can only be "complete" to you and then you would have to specify WHICH bible you are referring to. 

And as far as "without contradiction" goes, you would have to REDEFINE the word "contradiction" for this claim to ever be true. I've included a little list of known contradictions that I'VE seen in the Bible, and there are more where they came from. Have fun reading and learning: 

1.How many Gods are there? 
(GEN1:26) God said "LET US MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE ACCORDING TO OUR LIKENESS" , 
(GEN3:22) God said "MAN HAS BECOME LIKE ONE OF US" . 
(DEUT6:4) God is one God 

2.When was God first called Jehovah? 
(Genesis 4:26) long before Moses, men began to call on the name of the Lord, "Jehovah", 
(Genesis 22:14) Abraham named a place Jehovah-jireh. "The Lord will provide." 
(Exodus 6:2-3) God informed Moses that previously His name (Jehovah) had been unknown even to the patriarchs such as Abraham Isaac and Jacob 

3.When did the Nephilim live? 
(Genesis 6:4) The Nephilim (giants) lived on earth prior to the Flood 
(Genesis 7:23) Only Noah and his family, and the animals on the Ark, survived the Flood. 
(Numbers 13:33) Long after the Flood, the Nephilim (Giants) still lived. 

4. Does God repent? 
(Genesis 6:6) God does repent. 
(Numbers 23:19) God does not repent 
(I Samuel 15:11,35) God does repent. 

5.Who has ascended to heaven? 
(Genesis 5:24) Enoch was taken bodily into Heaven. 
(II Kings 2:11) Elijah ascended to heaven in a whirlwind. 
(John 3:13) Jesus said that no man but himself has ever ascended to heaven. 
(Hebrews 11:5) Enoch was taken bodily into Heaven. 

6.Math quiz: How many animals went on the Ark? 
(GEN6:19-20) God told Noah to take with him on the ark two of every kind of animal to include birds, animals and creeping things 
(GEN7:2-3) God told Noah to take with him on the ark seven of every clean animal and bird and two of every unclean animal. 

7.Math quiz: How long was the flood? 
(GEN7:17, 8:6) The flood was on the Earth 40 days and nights 
(GEN7:24, 8:3) The flood was on the Earth 150 days CONTRADICTS 
(GEN7:11) the flood began during the 600th year, 2nd month, 17th day of Noah's life and finally dried up 
(GEN8:13) during the 601st year, 1st month, 1st day of Noah's life (1 solar year from the date given in Gen7:11). 

8.When did the world develop many different languages? 
(Genesis 11:1,6-9) In the days of Babel, generations after the Flood, the world had one common language. God "confused the tongues" to create many. 
(Genesis 10:5) Prior to Babel, the Bible speaks of many "nations", each with its own language 

9.Does God cause confusion? 
(GEN11:9) God confused the language of all the Earth at Babel 
(EX15:24) God troubled (CONFUSED BY SOME TRANSLATIONS) the army of Egypt. 
(1SAM7:10) God thundered upon the philistines so as to confuse them 
(1COR14:33) God is not the author of confusion 

10.Math quiz: How long did Terah live? 
(Genesis 11:26,32) Terah lived 135 years after begetting Abraham (he begat Abram at age 70 and lived 205 years total). 
(Genesis 12:4) Abraham was 75 years old when he departed Haran. 
(Acts 7:4) Abraham departed Haran when his father (Terah) was dead. 

11.Who has seen God? 
(Gen 18:1) The Lord appeared to Abraham. 
(GEN32:24-30) Jacob saw and wrestled with God 
(EX24:9-11) Moses & 73 elders gazed upon God. 
(Exodus 33:11) God spoke to Moses face-to-face. 
(Exodus 33:22-23) God allowed Moses to see his "back parts". 
(Deut 34:10) God spoke to Moses face-to-face. 
(IS6:1-13) Isaiah stood before God and saw him 
(Ezekiel 1:27-28) Ezekiel saw God in a vision and described Him in some detail. 
(Amos 7:7) Amos saw God. 
(John 1:18, 6:46) No one has ever seen God. 
(1TIM6:16) God is un-seeable 
(I John 4:12) No one has ever seen God. 

12.Is God a fair and righteous judge? 
(GEN18:25) God claims to judge right 
(GEN22:1-2) God commands Abraham to sacrifice his own son. 
(EX20:5) God admits jealousy 
(DEUT32:4) God is perfect, just, true, righteous, upright, 
(PSALM92:15) God is not unrighteous 
(IS45:7) God claims to do good AND evil; all things 
(JER18:11) God threatens disaster to make a people be good 
(EZEK18:25) God claims to be fair 
(AMOS3:6) God admits he makes calamity 
(ROM2:11) God is impartial 
(JAMES 1:13) God is not tempted by evil and tempts no one with evil 

13.Who was Keturah? 
(GEN25:1) Keturah was Abraham's wife 
(1CHRON1:32) Keturah was Abraham's concubine. 

14.Who sold Joseph into slavery? 
(Genesis 37:36) The Midianites sold Joseph in Egypt to Potiphar, the courtier of Pharaoh 
(Geneis 39:1) The Ishmaelites brought Joseph to Egypt and sold him to Potiphar, the courtier of Pharaoh. 

15.Where was Jacob buried? 
(Genesis 50:13) Jacob was buried in Canaan. in a cave which Abraham had purchased from Ephron the Hittite. 
(Acts 7:15-16) Jacob was buried in Sychem. in a sepulchre which Abraham had purchased from Emmor. 

16.Does God condone or condemn lying? 
(EX2:18-20) God deals well with midwives for lying to the King of Egypt. 
(EX20:16) Lying forbidden 
(JOSH2:4-6) Rahab hides two men from the King of Jericho and lies to him and is dealt well with by God 
(PROV12:22) Lying is an abomination to God 
(JAMES2:25) James preaches that Rahab was justified for hiding two men and lying, 
(REV21:8) all liars will burn in the lake of fire 

17.How `bout stealing? 
(Exodus 3:21-22) plundering commanded. 
(Exodus 20:15) Stealing forbidden 

18.Does God afflict people with illnesses? 
(Exodus 4:11) God admitted He is the cause of blindness, deafness, dumbness. 
(Lamentations 3:33) God does not willingly cause grief or affliction. 








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Edited 6/22/01 1:50:57 PM ET by SEABREN 
  
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From:  Dr_Shock   6/22/2001 11:26 am  
To:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   (141 of 213)  
 
  29.141 in reply to 29.140  
 
I'm very impressed, although you only stated a few of the contradictions. Your post could go on and on. Then again it would be impossible to reasonably list all the written contradictions in the Bible on this forum let alone touching on the historical and social deviances.


-The Mad Dr. Shock 
  
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  From:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   6/22/2001 12:03 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (142 of 213)  
 
  29.142 in reply to 29.141  
 
Yup. I'm more interested in the history of things (including that associated with Christianity) than I am about "disproving" anything. It just irks me a little when someone is burying their head in the sand (whether intentional or not). Of COURSE I could go on ad nauseum regarding the contradictions and inconsistencies, but then the point that the bible is a very interesting and historically colorful document would be lost. 
I guess the main idea is that one needs to keep things in CONTEXT to appreciate the gem within. If you take either extreme view of the bible - that is it is ALL myth and fable or that it is ALL truth and fact - then it becomes an ugly joke. If taken for what it is - a historical accounting of traditions and beliefs of many different cultures throughout the centuries - then one can truly appreciate and grow from studying it. 

When someone says that the bible is flawless and they believe it literally, then they either haven't read it or they are just saying what they think they NEED to say to keep their god happy with them (or maybe just their peers?) 

Anyhoos, just trying to keep things straight. If you want to see more of that list, I'd be happy to post it. It is pretty long...






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  From:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   6/22/2001 12:19 pm  
To:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   (143 of 213)  
 
  29.143 in reply to 29.140  
 
Very well done job there. The contradictions are well worded and placed. One detail that can be noted though I'm sure I'll be slammed for this is that in th ancient language of the Jewish people 150 and 40 both meant 'A REALLY REALLY LONG TIME', as did 500 and 1000, though those usually were used to equate a whole lot instead of a really long period of time... please note though, big contradiction in the bible also is God's attitude, unless God made the Schizophrenic mind in his own image it makes one wonder, not to mention that he does refer to himself in the plural sense, though many Xians seem to consider this proof of the 'holy trinity' is more likely that at one point the Hebrew people were Polythestic... a good example of this would be taken from the story of the flight from Egypt... 
Al Kupone 



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Edited 6/22/2001 3:22:21 PM ET by KUPONE 
  
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  From:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   6/22/2001 12:54 pm  
To:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   (144 of 213)  
 
  29.144 in reply to 29.143  
 
not to mention that he does refer to himself in the plural sense, though many Xians seem to consider this proof of the 'holy trinity' is more likely that at one point the Hebrew people were Polythestic... a good example of this would be taken from the story of the flight from Egypt... 
This is one of those points that has gotten lost in the translations many times over. Christians today think that somewhere in their bible it states that there can be only ONE god (or "Trinity") according to the 10 C's but they have just basically neglected to recognize the culture that the ten commandments came from. You were right about the example of the Jews flight from Egypt - and the presence of other recognized gods. Even their god (the original christian god) recognized and admitted to the existence of other gods in their beliefs.

Why else is the CLOSEST traslation of the 10 commandments "Thou shalt have no other gods BEFORE me"? Note that it doesn't say "Thou shalt have no other gods". God was simply telling his people that they should make him their #1 god, but not the only one that is recognized. No other god should be placed BEFORE this god on the priority list. The Jews were far more concerned with believing that their god was the biggest, baddest mother in Heavenland than they were with convincing others that they should 1. believe in their god and 2. think that he is the ONLY god. 

Like I said, without studying the cultures and history of the texts, a lot of the meaning gets lost. Bummer.






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  From:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   6/22/2001 1:05 pm  
To:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   (145 of 213)  
 
  29.145 in reply to 29.144  
 
Another thing that has been lost is that God has multiple names, not just YHVH or the like, supposedly each of these names contain within thm a part of all of his true one name, the that is the unspeakable name. That one caused me a lot of trouble to understand when it was first taught to me by a rabbi... then again, there are mysteries of th Kabalah in these names that are not to be taught to either a woman or a non-Jewish person. 
Just some more fat to chew on... 

Al Kupone
 
  
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  From:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   6/22/2001 2:06 pm  
To:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   (146 of 213)  
 
  29.146 in reply to 29.145  
 
Thanks! I didn't know that little fact. 
Another tidbit to learn, file and store.






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  From:  StevenJn316   6/22/2001 3:04 pm  
To:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   (147 of 213)  
 
  29.147 in reply to 29.140  
 
Well, that is quite a list you have there, and it sure brought some applause from others here who support you. 
Apparently you have never heard of something known as CONTEXT. That would solve some of your problems. 

We could look at these one by one and you might learn something, if you were interested in something besides strawman arguments (your definition of a contradiction, then applied to the Bible). 

How about one simple example. You posted about the Nephilim (giants) that were existing before the Flood, which of course destroyed all but Noah's family and the animals on board the ark - then the Nephilim show up again later, postflood. 

You see THIS as a contradiction??? 

Did you stop to think about this issue, or are you listing items you read in a book. 

Where did these giants come from?? You are aware that after the flood a lot of people were born. Do you see a similar contradiction that at the time of Moses (which is when you are referring) there were more than 8 people on the land?? 

MUST BE A CONTRADICTION!! After all, all but eight people were killed in the flood, right? How could anyone else be alive one thousand years later if all but 8 were destroyed in the flood. 

And if you read Gen 6:4 it clearly reads "There were giants in the earth in those days; AND ALSO AFTER THAT..." 

Since Genesis was written by Moses, he tells you what was happening BOTH pre and post flood. He ANTICIPATED your 'contradiction' and dealt with it beforehand. 

Now, if you wish to revise your list some we can discuss which of these really seem like a contradiction, based on the context and the WHOLE teaching on the issue, that may bother you. 

 
  
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  From:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   6/22/2001 4:19 pm  
To:  StevenJn316   (148 of 213)  
 
  29.148 in reply to 29.147  
 
Genesis wasn't written by Moses, Moses wrote the Torah, and then the Romans (R-Catholics) edited the first book of the Torah ('Birth') and called it Genesis, the Latin word for birth. 
And where does it say in Genesis that giants were created? More contradictions mister Steven .... 

The Nephilim are Fallen-Angels people, not giants, (I should know, but don't ask me, atleast not here *hint,hint*) so that kinda explains that one .... sorry, but when a smart person trying to show the Fundies the truth makes a mistake I have to comment on it. 

What is it with you Fundies that makes you think that people who prove you wrong are somehow missing something and why can't you just accept that we're right and you're wrong, we have proof and you (only) have a Bible.


 
  
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  From:  Dr_Shock   6/22/2001 4:56 pm  
To:  StevenJn316   (149 of 213)  
 
  29.149 in reply to 29.147  
 
Your post completely agreed with what he said!! You didn't even make an argument! 
All I have to say is this: How could Moses write about what happened before the flood and after the flood if everything was whiped out in that big storm? Moses wasn't on the ark. 

And Nephilim aren't giants. They're half angel, half human creatures as seen in the Quaballah. Originally, you've got the Cherubim, the Seraphim and the Nephilim. They're all angels in one way or another, although the Nephilim are supposed to be able to die of unnatural causes. 

-The Mad Dr. Shock 



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Edited 6/22/01 8:35:30 PM ET by DR_SHOCK 
  
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  From:  Zebra30   6/22/2001 8:12 pm  
To:  Adrasteia & Lyrk (ToilnTrouble)   (150 of 213)  
 
  29.150 in reply to 29.132  
 
Whether you believe or not, ladies, the results are still the same. You, and all those on this planet who live in rebellion to the Creator will spend eternity in the lake of fire. Take up your argument with the Almighty Landlord Himself. He made the standards we are to live by, not me. 
  
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  From:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   6/23/2001 7:08 am  
To:  StevenJn316   (151 of 213)  
 
  29.151 in reply to 29.147  
 
Well, that is quite a list you have there, and it sure brought some applause from others here who support you. 
Apparently you have never heard of something known as CONTEXT. That would solve some of your problems. 

I'm not even going to respond to what amounts to a silly post from someone who has difficulty understanding what they are reading, and then decided to give a lesson on CONTEXT. I will simply re-post what I have written earlier regarding the same subject and just WHY the bible needs to be taken within the context that it was written.

From earlier in this thread (pay close attention to the second paragraph, in case you have trouble understanding it the second time around), I wrote:

"Yup. I'm more interested in the history of things (including that associated with Christianity) than I am about "disproving" anything. It just irks me a little when someone is burying their head in the sand (whether intentional or not). Of COURSE I could go on ad nauseum regarding the contradictions and inconsistencies, but then the point that the bible is a very interesting and historically colorful document would be lost. 

I guess the main idea is that one needs to keep things in CONTEXT to appreciate the gem within. If you take either extreme view of the bible - that is it is ALL myth and fable or that it is ALL truth and fact - then it becomes an ugly joke. If taken for what it is - a historical accounting of traditions and beliefs of many different cultures throughout the centuries - then one can truly appreciate and grow from studying it. 

When someone says that the bible is flawless and they believe it literally, then they either haven't read it or they are just saying what they think they NEED to say to keep their god happy with them (or maybe just their peers?) 

Anyhoos, just trying to keep things straight. If you want to see more of that list, I'd be happy to post it. It is pretty long..."

Does that help a little? Next time try to follow a little before you just jump in and make yourself look silly. Now back to the subject... 






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  From:  Adrasteia & Lyrk (ToilnTrouble)   6/23/2001 9:35 am  
To:  Zebra30   (152 of 213)  
 
  29.152 in reply to 29.150  
 
Wow... yet another 'oh, yeah, well you're going to HELL!' 
My problem, and my point, is that Hell, and all the other hallmarks of the fundamentalist model, are completely inconsistent with my experience of the Divine. Of course, my Divinity would be your demon, so I suppose it's just a perspective. In any event, if somehow I was given concrete evidence that the fundamentalist model was indeed the 'Truth', I would still be forced by my conscience to burn rater than pretend something terrible was 'Holy'.


When in the Hell/Purgatory area, feel free to visit the Den of Iniquity! Join the fun! 
http://forums.delphi.com/firefight/start 

I've got a dragon, and I'm not afraid to use it! 

Adrasteia & Lyrk: 
The Sapphic Spellcasters!
 
  
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  From:  StevenJn316   6/25/2001 1:16 pm  
To:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   (153 of 213)  
 
  29.153 in reply to 29.151  
 
My comment was geared to many of your 'contradictions' which are foolish based on the context. Such as the one involving God being the source or author of confusion. The context is far different depending on the passages you cite. 
Same with the one about heaven - you are aware of course that three different 'places' are known in the Bible as 'heaven'. Context explains which one is being dealt with, and also explains away your contradiction in that one as well. 

Same with words like repent. I too could go on and on if you kept listing such inane examples of contradiction.
 
  
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  From:  StevenJn316   6/25/2001 1:22 pm  
To:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   (154 of 213)  
 
  29.154 in reply to 29.148  
 
For the record, I did not post giants were created and I understand that they were a result of the offspring of angels with women. 
My point is in the 'contradiction' aspect. Since both man and angels existed before and after the flood, then it is possible to have these 'giants' in the land after the flood too. 

Yet, this was seen as a contradiction since the flood destroyed them. How foolish. 

Thank you for admitting Moses wrote the TORAH!!!! Please tell your friend Dr. Shock this!! I realize the Torah has been divided into the 5 books and their names today are of Gentile origin. 

But if you would read what I write before being so quick to jump in and show me where I am wrong, what did I write about Torah=law that you could not understand???
 
  
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  From:  StevenJn316   6/25/2001 1:40 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (155 of 213)  
 
  29.155 in reply to 29.149  
 
You can read my reply to Rob about the nephilim and the foolishness of seeing this as a contradiction. 
As to your other question - I will answer it with a question. How could any man (Moses or otherwise) write the future (prophecy) with such detailed accuracy as the Bible. Answer - God inspired the writings through human hands. 

So maybe God told Moses what had happened, or more likely there was some sort of written account that was carried on to the time of Moses when he put it all together in the way God ordered him to do so. 

Now I know you reject that idea, but it is what we believe and also what the Bible says about itself, in passages like 2 Peter 1:19-21. 

Also, Jesus said that Moses wrote the Torah in many places. I will assume he knows what he is speaking of. 

And what we believe answers your question. You can reject that belief and then be forced to reject Moses' authorship, but before you run to the study of documentary hypothesis, just be sure to read a man like Gleasson Archer, a scholar of the highest caliber who has answered the critics' charges and the various liberal theories of the past quite well. If you expose yourself to both views from sources of equal scholastic intelligence, you can decide for yourself who has the better argument. But to only look at one side, and then think the other side is best represented by internet boards is doing your mind a disservice - and a mind is a terrible thing to waste.
 
  
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  From:  Dr_Shock   6/25/2001 6:00 pm  
To:  StevenJn316   (156 of 213)  
 
  29.156 in reply to 29.155  
 
Could you give me a passage which talks about Giants in the Bible? I'm actually looking for a size reference if one exists in the Bible. 
The reason I ask is because I've got a National Geographic around here (somewhere) that has an article in it about some rather odd ruins found in the middle of Africa. Archeologests found traces of a civilzation that, physically, had to be around 15-20 feet tall (if everything was truly built to scale). On either the islands of Cyprus or Crete (can't remember which) they found similar structures although a little scaled down. 

Considering people used to be a lot shorter on average, any such civilization would, in fact, be "giants" to the folk of the time. 


-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
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  From:  DW (DeathWish123)   6/25/2001 6:17 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (157 of 213)  
 
  29.157 in reply to 29.156  
 
I agree. People were much much shorter back around the time of Jesus. The bible doesn't say much about how tall Jesus was, but he might be considered a midget by today's standards. Or very short. I'm not sure of the technical requirements in being a midget. I think its shorter than 5', right? Anyways Jesus probably wasn't taller than 5'3".

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W.W.I.D 

What would I do? 

Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, because I am the baddest mother in the valley.
 
  
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  From:  Dr_Shock   6/26/2001 12:53 am  
To:  DW (DeathWish123)   (158 of 213)  
 
  29.158 in reply to 29.157  
 
The Bible often mentions that Jesus was really, REALLY average in appearance. You know, the type of guy who can casually walk into a crowd and blend in like a chameleon. He was probably average height for the time, which, I believe, was between something like 4'10" and 5'5".

The Mad Dr. Shock 
  
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  From:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   6/26/2001 5:32 am  
To:  StevenJn316   (159 of 213)  
 
  29.159 in reply to 29.153  
 
You are completely missing the point. One can nit-pik the bible to pieces from either side of the table til hell freezes over and he will never be wrong or right. The only thing that will happen is the real meaning of the context of the writings will be missed. All your counters are an interpretation, just as the examples that I gave and are pretty meaningless in the overall study of the bible's texts. If you spent a little more time studing ABOUT the bible instead of justifying every passage in it, you might get a little more out of it. Or maybe not. 
Anyways, get over it.






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   From:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   6/26/2001 5:35 am  
To:  StevenJn316   (160 of 213)  
 
  29.160 in reply to 29.155  
 
How could any man (Moses or otherwise) write the future (prophecy) with such detailed accuracy 
What "detailed accuracy"?






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There is only one true belief!!! (23 views) Subscribe   
  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/26/2001 9:37 am  
To:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   (161 of 213)  
 
  29.161 in reply to 29.160  
 
2 Timothy 3:1-5 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, traitors, heady, high minded, lovers of pleasure more tan lovers of God; having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning and Never able to come to the knowledge of the Truth (Jesus).
This is an Incredible Bible Prophecy! The Bible also tells that in the last Days Knowledge will increase. God knows that Knowledge Does Not Lead to Civilization. Today we have health, safety, wealth, travel, convience, etc. beyond what even the wildest imagination of man could have perceived.

Yet with the Vast Comforts God has given to Mankind, People respond by becoming even More wicked and disobedient to God. Exactly like the Bible Tells It!!!

Daniel 12:4,10 .. many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.






David A. Brown
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/26/2001 9:49 am  
To:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   (162 of 213)  
 
  29.162 in reply to 29.160  
 
Also:
Luke 21:5,6 And as some spake of the Temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, He (Jesus) said, As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Again another Bold precise Bible Prophecy!!! The Temple was destroyed by the Roman Army in 72 A.D. one stone at a time, about 40 years after Jesus made this Prophecy!

But wait the Bible also says that that the Antichrist will defile a temple, and Now the Jewish Nation of Israel is making preparations to Build again Another Jewish Temple. Which of course could only Happen with the Jews Living in Israel the location of the temple site. Again More Exact Bible Prophecy!






David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/26/2001 10:03 am  
To:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   (163 of 213)  
 
  29.163 in reply to 29.160  
 
Again
Revelation 17:10 And there are seven kings (world rulers): five are fallen, and one is (Rome), and the other (antichrist) is not yet come; and when he (antichrist) cometh, he must continue a short space (3  years).

The Bible Tells us in many places (Daniel) that Rome would be the last World Ruler. It is no coincidence that Many, Many nations have tried to conquer the world in the Last 2,000 years but none have succeeded.

This Bible Prophecy Says that the Next world Ruler to come will be the Antichrist. This again Bold Actual Bible Fact, is written by God and not by man.

*There are Thousands and Thousands of Exact Bible Prophecies written in the Bible. The Bible is almost entirely written as Prophecy, that is why it is so Easy to see and Believe that the Bible is the Word of God, just as it Claims to be.






David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   6/26/2001 11:30 am  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (164 of 213)  
 
  29.164 in reply to 29.163  
 
David (DAVIDABROWN) wrote:
The Bible Tells us in many places (Daniel) that Rome would be the last World Ruler.
  Where does it say that?  Please cite the chapter and verse.  If the Bible does, in fact say this, then it was wrong.  Rome could never have been accurately said to be a world ruler.  At most, Rome has covered parts of Europe and Africa, leaving the vast majority of the world well outside of its control and jurisdiction.  Certainly all of Asia was not ruled by Rome, and the Romans didn't even know about the American continents, nor Australia.  It'd take more research than I have time to do to know for sure, but I suspect that large parts even of Europe and Africa were never under Rome's control.



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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    6/26/2001 11:58 am  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (165 of 213)  
 
  29.165 in reply to 29.164  
 
Daniel chapter 7
Revelation 17:10 deals with the history of 7 kingdoms; Egypt, Assyria, Babylon (Iraq), Medo  Persian (Iran), Greece, Rome, Revised Rome.

Daniel 7 covers the Kingdoms from Daniels time on. 4 Kingdoms Babylon, Medo  Persian, Greece, (Rome & Revised Rome)

Daniel 7:23,24 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the forth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from All kingdoms, and Shall Devour the Whole Earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. And the ten horns of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise:

God makes the point that This Final Kingdom will in Fact control the Whole Earth where the Other Kingdoms Controlled Israel and the Region.

God Knows the Whole Earth past present, and future!!






David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   6/26/2001 12:44 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (166 of 213)  
 
  29.166 in reply to 29.161  
 
This is an Incredible Bible Prophecy! 
David, this is no more "detailed" or illuminating than any horoscope that you read in the daily papers. It is subjective and obvious. I can easily predict right now that knowledge will increase in the future and perceived adultery will rise. This is nothing new and history can show it.




 
  
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  From:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   6/26/2001 12:52 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (167 of 213)  
 
  29.167 in reply to 29.162  
 
Luke 21:5,6 And as some spake of the Temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, He (Jesus) said, As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Again another Bold precise Bible Prophecy!!! The Temple was destroyed by the Roman Army in 72 A.D. one stone at a time, about 40 years after Jesus made this Prophecy! 

But David, some scholars put the writing of Luke at its EARLIEST at 70 years after the death of Jesus (most others put it later), this would make the "prophecy" into actually a history lesson.

And if getting a few vague guesses right makes one a prophet or a god, then Jeannie Dixon and Nostradamus should be sitting on the holy throne, no?






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  From:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   6/26/2001 1:10 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (168 of 213)  
 
  29.168 in reply to 29.165  
 
David (DAVIDABROWN) wrote:
Daniel chapter 7
  .
  .
  .
Daniel 7 covers the Kingdoms from Daniels time on. 4 Kingdoms Babylon, Medo  Persian, Greece, (Rome & Revised Rome)
  Yes, but it says nothing there about Rome being any kind of World Ruler, last or otherwise.  You aserted, in an earlier message, that, The Bible Tells us in many places (Daniel) that Rome would be the last World Ruler.  I replied that Rome never has been a World Ruler, and challenged you to show where, in the Bible, it says otherwise.  Your reference to Daniel, Chapter 7 does not fullfill this challenge.



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 To email me, remove the string .nospam from the email address which appears below.  DO NOT send me any form of advertising, chain letters, or other such garbage.  Spammers will be dealt with very harshly!

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  From:  Adrasteia & Lyrk (ToilnTrouble)   6/26/2001 5:57 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (169 of 213)  
 
  29.169 in reply to 29.163  
 
Prophecies that have yet to be fulfilled can't be used to prove prophecy very well. Rome is at the moment a very minor player in the scheme of things. 
Things have always been like the scene portrayed in the 'perilous times' of Timothy. And as long as man has existed, he has learnd. The increase of knowledge is not unique to this age. 
Hebrew scholars can refute the relevance of every biblical prophecy in the Torah to Christ. Prophecy is a poor argument to support fundamentalism. 


When in the Hell/Purgatory area, feel free to visit the Den of Iniquity! Join the fun! 
http://forums.delphi.com/firefight/start 

I've got a dragon, and I'm not afraid to use it! 

Adrasteia & Lyrk: 
The Sapphic Spellcasters!
 
  
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  From:  StevenJn316   6/26/2001 11:27 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (170 of 213)  
 
  29.170 in reply to 29.156  
 
Yes, I have heard of a variety of finds of human skeletons in the 10 foot range or so...have not encountered the 15-20 feet ones you mentioned. 
Of course measurements are often given in cubits which is the length from the elbow to the tip of the fingers, so an average of 18 inches is what seems to be commonly used. 

Goliath and others are given their height in the Bible, based in cubits..if you have a concordance handy you can check, I do not as I quickly post this. Goliath is over 8 feet if I recall, based on an 18 inch cubit. 

I think 'giant' is a poor English choice to use for the creatures described in Gen 6 and elsewhere though...
 
  
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  From:  StevenJn316   6/26/2001 11:31 pm  
To:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   (171 of 213)  
 
  29.171 in reply to 29.159  
 
You said 'all my counters are interpretations' as if that is a bad thing??!! How on earth do we read ANY book without also interpreting what we read?? The key is HOW we interpret something, and the rules that apply to any work of literature apply to the Bible as well. 
I have read a lot ABOUT the Bible, however I also choose to read BOTH sides of the argument - the liberal higher criticism views, as well as conservative 'literal' views. It would be foolish of me to only read people who agree with my views, right? 

I hope you do the same.
 
  
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  From:  StevenJn316   6/26/2001 11:39 pm  
To:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   (172 of 213)  
 
  29.172 in reply to 29.160  
 
Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 are pretty detailed descriptions, especially since crucifixion was not yet invented when they were written. 
Daniel 9 predicts the very day Jesus would present himself as Messiah to Jerusalem. Zecheraih explains the donkey. Zecheriah tells us how much Jesus would be betrayed for in silver pieces. 

Gen 49 tells of the Messiah appearing before capital punishment would be taken from the Jews (which Rome did of course). 

BTW, these are detailed within Jewish rabbinical writings by men who reject that Jesus is their promised Messiah. You are aware that a sect of Judaism took Isaiah 53 out of their Scriptures since it was so clearly speaking of Jesus - only to be thwarted when the dead sea scrolls were found. 

Again, there are some great reference works which give these in detail and present the argument for you, if you were asking me a legitimate question. In fact you might want to read about prophecy from Judaism to get a nonbiased Christian view - what they think of the Messiah, then compare to what Jesus fulfilled.
 
  
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  From:  StevenJn316   6/26/2001 11:46 pm  
To:  Bob Blaylock (Bob_Blaylock)   (173 of 213)  
 
  29.173 in reply to 29.164  
 
Bob, the lense of the Bible is always Israel, and prophecy details who rules over Israel. Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome and a 'revived roman empire' to come (no doubt the EU). In this week's Forbes there was a comment 'nonreligious context' that the EU wants to be one great superstate. Italy (Rome) being a part of the EU of course. 
But even historians speak of Alexander the Great weeping when he made it as far as India, saying there were no more lands to conquer. Obviously an exaggeration. But one understands the point. 

Even the antichrist will not rule over the whole world, in the literal sense, as Daniel tells us of the area in modern Jordan which escapes his reign. I doubt he will have much direct influence over SOuth America and the like, either. Daniel also explains the challenges he faces keeping his power together.
 
  
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  From:  StevenJn316   6/26/2001 11:52 pm  
To:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   (174 of 213)  
 
  29.174 in reply to 29.167  
 
That is why God demanded 100% accuracy for prophets, sorry Jeanne Dixon and others, or else be killed. 
That is also why the prophets of Scripture had most of their prophecies fulfilled within a short time, while still living, to show the people they are true prophets. Then they would listen to prophecies about the Messiah or endtimes which would not happen in their lifetimes. 

And before you 'latedate' these men too quickly, you really should study textual criticism from the conservative side as well as the liberal critics you cite. 

You see, if one assumes apriori the Bible is not inspired by God then the only explanation for all fulfilled prophecy is late-dating everything, hardly very scholastic.
 
  
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  From:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   6/27/2001 6:52 am  
To:  StevenJn316   (175 of 213)  
 
  29.175 in reply to 29.171  
 
You amaze me. How can you read something that I wrote that is in such plain and simple English and still misunderstand it completely? Does this happen with everything you read (and therefore explains your unique interpretations of the bible)? 
This is what you just wrote:

You said 'all my counters are interpretations' as if that is a bad thing??!! How on earth do we read ANY book without also interpreting what we read?? 

And somehow, you neglect the entire sentence and extract some kind of "BAD" connotation out of it when it was obvious that I made a GENERALIZATION and even included MY interpretations in the statement - trying to level the discussion. The point WAS that all of our arguments are interpretations, but somehow you missed it when I stated it and felt the need to re-state (the obvious) yourself. What I actually wrote was:

"All your counters are an interpretation, just as the examples that I gave and are pretty meaningless in the overall study of the bible's texts."

Get a grip and try to spend a little more time comprehending what you read, it will make all of our lives a little easier. 






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  From:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   6/27/2001 6:56 am  
To:  StevenJn316   (176 of 213)  
 
  29.176 in reply to 29.172  
 
You are aware that a sect of Judaism took Isaiah 53 out of their Scriptures since it was so clearly speaking of Jesus - only to be thwarted when the dead sea scrolls were found. 
I wasn't aware that the Dead Sea Scrolls referenced Jesus directly, they only spoke of their author's sect of Judaism and the times.






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  From:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   6/27/2001 8:09 am  
To:  StevenJn316   (177 of 213)  
 
  29.177 in reply to 29.174  
 
That is why God demanded 100% accuracy for prophets, sorry Jeanne Dixon and others, or else be killed. 
Then Jesus cannot be the Messiah, as he did not fill the prophecies of the old testament exactly as they were predicted. Tell me where the OT prophecy is when the Messiah comes, dies and then takes a vacation for a few thousand years before he comes again. The old testament prophecies talk of the coming of the messiah once. (I'm not saying that it doesn't exist, I just have never seen the particular type of "return" that Jesus is supposedly performing anywhere in the OT and would like to know where it is if you know.)

And before you 'latedate' these men too quickly, you really should study textual criticism from the conservative side as well as the liberal critics you cite. 

I do. But I just find those claim and analyses a little more reaching and assuming than the more methodical.

You see, if one assumes apriori the Bible is not inspired by God then the only explanation for all fulfilled prophecy is late-dating everything, hardly very scholastic. 

What you just seemed to say was that to be "scholastic" one needs to assume that the Bible is inspired by god. That makes no sense to me. Please clarify. 






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  From:  StevenJn316   6/27/2001 11:37 am  
To:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   (178 of 213)  
 
  29.178 in reply to 29.177  
 
There are two distinct veins of OT Messianic prophecy, one of the suffering servant and the other of the ruling king. Judaism speaks of these in terms of Messian ben Joseph and ben David respectfully. 
Since they are contradictory, it was easy for the disciples of Jesus to 'forget' about the suffering ones and focus on the overthrow of Rome and the setting up of the kingdom again. Read the gospels and you will see this mistake over and over in their talks with Jesus. 

So the Jews think there will be two Messiahs. Actually there is one Messiah who comes twice. Nowhere in the OT does it preclude that, in fact there are a couple sources in Judaism which believe that would be the case (I can look up if you wish - it is a small minority compared to the two Messiah view) 

As to my other point about scholarship. Of course one does not have to accept God's inspiration of Scripture. The discipline of textual criticism is applied to any ancient work of literature, whether Aristotle, Caesar, Homer or historians like Philo, Josephus or Herodotus. My point is that using the same standards upon the bible as other works, one can strongly argue against the late-dating idea which MUST be adhered to by any who deny the inspiration since the details of fulfilled prophecy are so exact. 

Some purely historical examples are the naming of Cyrus and the prediction how Babylon would be taken by the Medo-Persians, written by Isaiah...as well as the prophecy in Daniel of Cleopatra, Antiochus IV and others.
 
  
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  From:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   6/27/2001 11:56 am  
To:  StevenJn316   (179 of 213)  
 
  29.179 in reply to 29.178  
 
So the Jews think there will be two Messiahs. Actually there is one Messiah who comes twice. Nowhere in the OT does it preclude that, in fact there are a couple sources in Judaism which believe that would be the case (I can look up if you wish - it is a small minority compared to the two Messiah view) 
But doesn't the "two Messiah view" (of which I am skeptical, so if you have a reference I'd like to see it) and the inherent contradiction refute your statements that the prophets were EXACT and that Jesus fulfilled the prophecy?

As to my other point about scholarship. Of course one does not have to accept God's inspiration of Scripture. The discipline of textual criticism is applied to any ancient work of literature, whether Aristotle, Caesar, Homer or historians like Philo, Josephus or Herodotus. My point is that using the same standards upon the bible as other works, one can strongly argue against the late-dating idea which MUST be adhered to by any who deny the inspiration since the details of fulfilled prophecy are so exact. 

Well, I completely disagree and hold the position that the evidence from a neutral point supports the late-date position and one must start making more assumptions and stretches to tie in some sort of theistic inspiration and fulfilled prophecy. But we can choose to disagree and be done with it unless we really want to start digging up sources and references, of which I don't have much time to do at the moment. So if you would like post away, but I would need verifiable sources and research to begin to think that the current estimates of the ages of the texts are incorrect and they actually occurred earlier.






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   From:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   6/27/2001 12:29 pm  
To:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   (180 of 213)  
 
  29.180 in reply to 29.176  
 
If I may interject... 
The comming of the Messiah is supposed to be the sign of the begining of the end of the world, it has been 2000 years, therefor, there is a falacy upon the assumption that Jesus is th messiah spoken of right there. 
Also, if I may be so bold, if you read some of the works of Paul he also urges people to procreate only as they must to admit thier weaknesses as human beings with the need to have children as the world would be ending VERY soon. The world is still ticking again. 

Enough said... now my question is why does eveyone keep telling God what to do?
 
  
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From:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   6/27/2001 12:35 pm  
To:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   (181 of 213)  
 
  29.181 in reply to 29.180  
 
The comming of the Messiah is supposed to be the sign of the begining of the end of the world, it has been 2000 years, therefor, there is a falacy upon the assumption that Jesus is th messiah spoken of right there. 
Thanks. That, among other parts of the prophecy that do not fit with the Jesus model, is what I have read and I have questions about.






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  From:  Dr_Shock   6/27/2001 12:44 pm  
To:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   (182 of 213)  
 
  29.182 in reply to 29.176  
 
Not once in the Dead Sea Scrolls is Jesus or his followers ever mentioned.


-The Mad Dr. Shock 
  
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  From:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   6/27/2001 12:54 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (183 of 213)  
 
  29.183 in reply to 29.182  
 
Not once in the Dead Sea Scrolls is Jesus or his followers ever mentioned. 
I know, so this and other misleading statements that Steven has made makes me skeptical of anything that he writes. Some of this he seems to pull out of left field.

The DSS were written by a sect of Judaism that was in fear of persecution and were a parallel group to Jesus. The value in their scrolls were that they were a pretty good window into the times and the culture of the Jews around the time of Jesus. But they didn't give any indication that they even knew if Jesus existed. He was just another dissident Jew that didn't have the brains to "hide out" like they did. In the end it didn't matter, they returned to civilization and were wiped out (so I've read).








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Edited 6/27/01 4:00:43 PM ET by SEABREN 
  
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  From:  StevenJn316   6/27/2001 2:52 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (184 of 213)  
 
  29.184 in reply to 29.182  
 
I never said they were. What I wrote is the passage known as Isaiah 53 IS found in the dead sea scrolls. This passage if you read it speaks very clearly of the death of a single individual in the exact way and for the same purpose as Christianity believes in terms of Jesus. 
It is so evident that a sect of Judaism REMOVED Isaiah 53 from their Scriptures, so the curious among them would not draw the connection to Jesus which is so clearly evident. The passage was removed for centuries until the dead sea scrolls were found. 

Read Isaiah 53 for yourself.
 
  
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  From:  StevenJn316   6/27/2001 2:53 pm  
To:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   (185 of 213)  
 
  29.185 in reply to 29.183  
 
Read my recent post to Dr. Shock about what I ACTUALLY wrote and meant about the deas sea scrolls and Isaiah 53. 
Then please read Isaiah 53 for yourself.
 
  
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  From:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   6/27/2001 3:02 pm  
To:  StevenJn316   (186 of 213)  
 
  29.186 in reply to 29.184  
 
I think you are reaching again. I'm familiar with Isaiah 53 and it is not making anything clear other than the description of a general martyr. Likewise a book written long after the death of Jesus is once again enough to draw a past correlation and the DSS don't support the correlation to Jesus, at least from what I have read. 
But I AM learning more, so keep posting.






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  From:  StevenJn316   6/27/2001 3:43 pm  
To:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   (187 of 213)  
 
  29.187 in reply to 29.186  
 
But please notice WHY this martyr of Isaiah 53 died - and of course if not a reference to Jesus, then who??? The gospels point to this passage as speaking of Jesus, and Isaiah 53 was certainly written well before the birth of Christ, even being translated into other languages and commented upon by ancient rabbis. 
At least it sounds like you don't think I am deliberately trying to deceive you anymore, or that I am an uneducated idiot in these areas. I admit a large amount of ignorance about plasma LOL!, but as a pastor I study this field quite a lot. 

 
  
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  From:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   6/28/2001 3:47 am  
To:  StevenJn316   (188 of 213)  
 
  29.188 in reply to 29.187  
 
erhm.... rabbis didn't translate anything, because the texts were in hebrew and they already spoke that and contrairy to post-Christ religions, the jews didn't see the gathering of more money.... erhm I mean followers as the most important goal.

 
  
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  From:  Dr_Shock   6/28/2001 3:54 am  
To:  StevenJn316   (189 of 213)  
 
  29.189 in reply to 29.184  
 
The Romans used to crucify a lot of people. There is much documentation about the Roman crucifixion of many other profits of the day. If you spoke up against Roma, you died, plain and simple. Such a prediction would not take a stretch of the imagination.


-The Mad Dr. Shock 
  
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  From:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   6/28/2001 4:25 am  
To:  Dr_Shock   (190 of 213)  
 
  29.190 in reply to 29.189  
 
I am spartacus, no I am spartacus etc....! 
All those guys were crucified too and even though the movie was severally romantisiced it is a true story. 

(just supporting ya)
 
  
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  From:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   6/28/2001 6:15 am  
To:  StevenJn316   (191 of 213)  
 
  29.191 in reply to 29.187  
 
I don't know why the concept of "hindsight is 20-20" is so difficult for you to understand.
But please notice WHY this martyr of Isaiah 53 died - and of course if not a reference to Jesus, then who??? 

LOTS of people were executed in those times. Good people. People who "served god well". Ordinary people. For any number of small acts. Why do you think it is so difficult and improbable to write about a death, describe it in unverifiable terms, and then make a reference to a single scripture and claim that the PARTICULAR death you speak of is unique and exact when the terms used to describe the scripture are so vague? This is the point that I feel you are taking vast leaps of faith to draw the correlation.

It would be like me predicting that there will be a red-headed woman, who will be pregnant, that will be driving a Japanese car and will crash, losing her life but the baby will live. Then, in a completely different writing, someone says that the surviving baby will be a prophet, we have a two loosely related predictions. Since car wrecks, red-headed women, pregnancies and japanese cars are plentiful in this day and age, then it is entirely probable that their will be MANY cases that fit this description in the next 100 years. Then, if after any random baby baby is born, grows up and dies, and 70 years after that baby is dead someone decides to write a biography of the life of the random baby, but needs to put a little "ooomph" behind their story, they decide to claim that the random baby had a red-headed mother who died in a car wreck while pregnant and driving a Japanese car. WHO will be the one to refute such a claim? All that is left is for people to make the connection to my bland and generalized prediction 170 years prior and you have instant fulfilled prophecy.

Accepting the claim that Jesus filled Isaiah 53's prophecy exactly is like accepting the horoscopes in the newspaper as exact and fulfilling. It is just too generalized and subjective. But you will NEVER convince those who BELIEVE in horoscopes that that is what they really are.






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  From:  StevenJn316   6/28/2001 12:49 pm  
To:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   (192 of 213)  
 
  29.192 in reply to 29.188  
 
If I said translate then I misspoke, but I meant 'interpret' which they did in VOLUMES...mishnah, talmud, targums etc... 
That cynical only want your money attitude may fly in the USA today, and you will get a lot of agreement from your fellow critics, but hard to argue that about all the martyrs TODAY around the world who must lose all to follow Christ (lose it from society, even their life often) not give it to the church. 

Talk to Muslims who become Christians in the Middle East, Hindus who become Christians in India etc....
 
  
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  From:  StevenJn316   6/28/2001 12:52 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (193 of 213)  
 
  29.193 in reply to 29.189  
 
Were the Romans crucifying people in 720 BC when Isaiah was written, or 1000 BC when Psalm 22 was written??? If they were, did the Jews in Israel know about it...Rome was hardly the world power it became at those early dates..... 
again, we go back to the need for latedating of the texts to eliminate the prophecy angle.
 
  
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  From:  StevenJn316   6/28/2001 12:54 pm  
To:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   (194 of 213)  
 
  29.194 in reply to 29.191  
 
again, the argument you present seems to REQUIRE a latedating of the texts for its necessity.... 
  
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  From:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   6/28/2001 1:19 pm  
To:  StevenJn316   (195 of 213)  
 
  29.195 in reply to 29.194  
 
I see what you mean, but I maintain that it is the probability (ala Occam's razor) that suggests the latedating, not the formulation of the theory.




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  From:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   6/28/2001 4:53 pm  
To:  StevenJn316   (196 of 213)  
 
  29.196 in reply to 29.192  
 
look at the pope's possesions .... they were all payed for by money stolen in name of the church, and God obviously stood by and let it happen, even though it all happened in his name ..... Oh what a great religion christianity is!!! 
  
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  From:  Al Kupone (Kupone)   6/28/2001 7:48 pm  
To:  StevenJn316   (197 of 213)  
 
  29.197 in reply to 29.193  
 
<Were the Romans crucifying people in 720 BC when Isaiah was written, or 1000 BC when Psalm 22 was written??? 
If they were, did the Jews in Israel know about it...Rome was hardly the world power it became at those early dates..... > 
Actually, the romans were not but crucifiction was hardly a Roman invention. Why not try using the fire bringer from greek mythology as an example. 

Al Kupone
 
  
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  From:  Dr_Shock   6/30/2001 7:34 am  
To:  StevenJn316   (198 of 213)  
 
  29.198 in reply to 29.193  
 
See Al's post. The Romans didn't really invent much. Most of what they knew was stolen from earlier cultures. The act of crucifying criminals has been around since the times of Sumeria. Crucifixion was one of the reasons Hamurabbi (sp?) wrote the first laws. 
Really, if you look at it, stoning someone to death is much more humane than crucifixion. Crucifixion often took one up to 2 weeks to die, sometimes longer if your captors sustained you with food and water. If your feet were nailed or tied down it would also prolong death because you could push yourself up to relieve the pressure from your upper back and shoulders. This is why a lot of people had their legs broken after being strung up for several days. Unfortunately the Romans weren't into breaking legs. 



-The Mad Dr. Shock
 
  
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  From:  DW (DeathWish123)   6/30/2001 1:45 pm  
To:  Dr_Shock   (199 of 213)  
 
  29.199 in reply to 29.198  
 
Funny. The Romans weren't into breaking legs, but the Mafia, which originated from Italy, is very fond of breaking legs. 
Also, many people did not die of blood loss on the cross. Many died of suffocation. But Jesus was an exception. He prbably did die of blood loss. Being whipped, then a crown of thorns, then having to carry about a 100 lb cross about a mile or so (I'm not sure of the exact distance, but a mile sounds good), then nailed up, and had a sword/spear shoved through his gut. If you don't believe that would kill a man, you're crazy.

---------------------------------- 

W.W.I.D 

What would I do? 

Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil, because I am the baddest mother in the valley.
 
  
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   From:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   6/30/2001 4:58 pm  
To:  DW (DeathWish123)   (200 of 213)  
 
  29.200 in reply to 29.199  
 
suffocation? I thought it was dehydration (both from bloodloss and the whole 'hanging in the sun drying').

 
  
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From:  Dr_Shock   7/1/2001 12:58 pm  
To:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   (201 of 213)  
 
  29.201 in reply to 29.200  
 
Technically, you die of asphyxiation when crucified. Any other cause of death is just a bonus to your captors.


-The Mad Dr. Shock 
  
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  From:  StevenJn316   7/1/2001 2:30 pm  
To:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   (202 of 213)  
 
  29.202 in reply to 29.196  
 
God stands by a lot, waiting for a final day of judgment, or did you think the Bible spoke of God sending a bolt of lightning to you when we sin?? You should reread my post about 'labels' and who is Christian and not, by their deeds. 
  
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  From:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   7/1/2001 3:58 pm  
To:  StevenJn316   (203 of 213)  
 
  29.203 in reply to 29.202  
 
yeah, but judgement day is at the end of days (time), however there is no end of days (time) because 'God is eternal' and god doesn't exist out of time. So basically we're never going to get judged. Besides, judgement day is at the end of times and after that you get rewarded/punished for eternity ..... what eternity would that be? Time would already have stopped.

 
  
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  From:  M_DAuvergne   7/3/2001 8:21 am  
To:  Natureboy (Vamp_Rob)   (204 of 213)  
 
  29.204 in reply to 29.203  
 
Hmmm...looking at this scientifically, time can only "stop" to a person who is trapped inside the event horizon of a singularity...so does this mean that when god comes, he will just be a superdense mass producing gravity virtual particles of...say...spin 1 1/2 that would only grab the sinful and suck them right down the universal toilet?

Je te remercie! 
~M. D'Auvergne
 
  
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  From:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   7/3/2001 8:30 am  
To:  M_DAuvergne   (205 of 213)  
 
  29.205 in reply to 29.204  
 
Uh uh. When he comes he will fly around the earth from east to west so fast that it will stop spinning and possibly reverse, causing time to stop and then go backwards. 
I know this is true. I saw Superman do it.






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  From:  DW (DeathWish123)   7/3/2001 8:48 am  
To:  ))))====ffft!!=====--- ___ @___ (SeaBren)   (206 of 213)  
 
  29.206 in reply to 29.205  
 
Yeah, but if god does do that, EVERYONE WILL DIE! We are currently going around the earth at over 200 mph or so. Now, if the Earth would instantaneously stop, imagine slamming into the nearest wall at over 200 mph. Or if you're out in a field, being dragged along the ground at 200 mph. Only those in airplanes would survive, but they are destined to burn in hell too. After all, if God intended us to fly, he would have given us wings. Airplanes are the Devil's work! Anyone who has ridden on an airplane will burn in hell.

---------------------------------- 
W.W.I.D 

What would I do?
 
  
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From:  COMALite J (COMALITEJ)  (207 of 213) 5/28/2002 2:03 am  
To:  ALL    
 
    
 
Earlier someone posted a list of Bible contradictions, and one of them was whether or not God condones lying. Whoever it was forgot this little gem, which appears twice in the Bible: I Kings 22 and II Chronicles 18 (note that those are entire chapters, so please, belay the usual accusations that Im taking something out of context).

How about the numerous major contradictions that abound in the four Gospel accounts of the Resurrection, the single most important event  indeed, the defining event  of Christianity, of which Paul himself said that, if it did not happen, Christians would be of all men the most miserable, believing a lie!? Including such things as what time of day (before or after sunrise, for instance) that the woman/women arrived, how many women and who they were, how many angels (one or two), where they were, what they said, to whom, when and how any of the Apostles got involved, which ones, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.  and, most importantly, how not one of the accounts makes it possible to satisfy the sign that Jesus Himself said would be the only sign given to the world at large, the Sign of the Prophet Jonah? You remember, for as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the fish, so too would the Son of man be three days and three nights in the belly of the Earth? Yet, even if you count the few minutes at most remaining in the Day of Preparation for the Sabbath (Friday) until sundown, which in Jewish chronology marks the beginning of a new day, as a whole daytime, and also likewise count the at most few minutes after sunup that the Resurrection occured (it had to occur before the women arrived, and yet Matthew 28:1 says that the day had only begun to dawn [meaning the sky was just turning light in the east, and it would still be about an hour or more before the actual sunrise that marks the end of a nighttime and beginning of daytime of the same day in Jewish chronology], and John 20:1 flat out says it was still dark, when they came to the tomb! Even if you deny these accounts in favor of the one from Mark 16:2 which says that the sun had risen [flatly contradicting Matthew and John  Luke only says that it was very early in the morning, and doesnt specify whether it was before or after sunrise {quite an omission from the most scholarly historian among the four Gospel writers}]) as a whole daytime, that still leaves at most three days and two nights (Matthew and John would only have it be two days and two nights! The Resurrection accounts all show it as flunking the Sign of the Prophet Jonah, and remember, Jesus Christ Himself said that that was the only sign of the truth of His Resurrection to be given to the world!

How about the fact that there are many contradictions not just within the Bible itself, but between the Bible and directly observable reality? If you think the Bible is absolutely accurate in every detail, then please post a link or image (Ive seen many images posted here, so I know that at least some of you know enough HTML to do this) of a circle that is (when rounded to the nearest whole value, to take into account the fact that the ancient Israelites didnt use fractions) 10 of any unit of your choice in diameter, and (again, when likewise rounded) 30 of that same unit in circumfrence. According to math and geometry and science, it just cant be done, since the value of p  3.1415926535897932384626433832795..., not 3. Even rounded off, either the diameter would be less than 9 units or the circumfrence would be over 31 units. And yet, the Bible twice says that it has been done: I Kings 7:23 and II Chronicles 4:2!

Okay, maybe you can finagle a way out of that one (if the diameter is only the inside diameter, which is an unlikely but possible interpretation of from brim to brim and given that the thickness was a handspan, then 10 and 30 would be reasonable rounded-off approximations). Explain, then, the firmament. You know, that thing that God created on the 2nd day (Genesis 1:69), that was a hard physical object (the sky, as a physical dome) that had water both below and above it (thats why the sky is blue, since water is blue and the firmament itself is transparent, so youre seeing the blue of the waters above the firmament, doncha know? Of course, in actuality, its the other way around: bodies of water only appear blue because theyre reflecting the blue sky, which itself is blue only because gasses and particles in the atmosphere are fluorescing that color in the ultraviolet of the Suns light: the water in a glass of water is clear!), and that the waters below were later gathered into one place? It had windows in it that God could open to let the waters above fall through as rain (Genesis 7:11  rain doesnt really come from rainclouds, doncha know  God must just put those clouds there to cover up the windows while theyre open so that we cant see through them into heaven). Oh, yeah, and the Sun and Moon and stars are actually just lights embdded in this firmament thingie (Genesis 1:1419). So how come none of the airplanes, space shuttles, interplanetary probes, and even probes that are on their way out of the solar system have ever managed to crash into this firmament thingie? If the Moon is just a light embdded in the firmament, how did men walk on it, and were viewed doing so on live television (which I watched myself, live, in my youth)? How is it that they set there a reflecting mirror that we can bounce a laser off of to this very day, and detect the reflection? Of course we now know and have proven absolutely that the Moon does not give off any light of its own  how does this square with Genesis 1:16 which specifically states that the Moon is a light, and even has God Himself calling it that as He creates it? The simple directly observable fact is that there is not now, nor has there ever been, any such thing as the firmament! So why does Genesis describe its creation in such detail?

This last example is by far the most serious and the most tragic. Children have died horribly because their parents believed this. Gods promises never fail, right? (Despite that bit I referenced above about how God sent a lying spirit into the mouths of 400 of His own prophets, all to trick a king into going to his death in battle.) Note that, with apologies to Gilbert & Sullivan, never does not mean, well, hardly ever! If a promise from God, stated in the Bible as such, fails even once, at any place, at any time, in all of history combined, then at the very least it calls into question whether the part of the Bible where that promise is contained is accurate (and yet, David and others here insist that the Bible is 100% complete and accurate). If the passage is accurate, then either God lies, or He does not exist. There are no other options. Okay, got all that? Now, look up Proverbs 22:13. Is that or is that not a promise from God? His spokesperson here is making a very definite If  Then  logical proposition here: if you beat your child with a rod, the child will not die. Note that there are no conditions for this promise: it doesnt say you can only beat them with a Nerf rod, or only give one to three hits, or even that it only works if youre a Bible-believing Christian or Jew. I leave it as an exercise for the reader to look up for himself or herself, using general Internet search engines, for various child abuse prevention and statistics sites to see just how many times this particular promise has failed, tragically, in the USA alone, in recent years alone. Note how some of these cases involve people who beat their children to death, with rods, precisely because they believed this promise! And remember, it only has to have failed once, anywhere, anytime to absolutely disprove at the very least that this verse is a valid promise from God!
 
From:  David (DavidABrown)    5/28/2002 8:34 am  
To:  COMALite J (COMALITEJ)   (208 of 213)  
 
  29.208 in reply to 29.207  
 
Well the forum has had quite a respite from the lazy ill-conceived smear tactics of non-believers but looks like we have another one and in your case you have not even bothered to read any posts here on this forum prior to your posting.

 

For starters please read the Resurrection (Easter) posting, "A walk with Jesus 2,000 years ago" regarding the last ten days with Jesus it thoroughly covers the last ten days with Jesus on earth specifically covering his death on the cross the three days and three nights in the center of the earth and then His glorious resurrection the third day.

 

God Bless You,

David



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  COMALite J (COMALITEJ)   5/28/2002 3:01 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (209 of 213)  
 
  29.209 in reply to 29.208  
 
Well the forum has had quite a respite from the lazy ill-conceived smear tactics of non-believers but looks like we have another one and in your case you have not even bothered to read any posts here on this forum prior to your posting. 
I tell you what. You provide a link to the post you refer to, and I will read it. In return, I suggest you read a common dictionary of the English language and look up the difference between the terms any vs. all or every. I did read every single post in this thread before posting, and many in other threads as well, but I do freely admit that I have not read every single post in every single thread on this entire Forum. If that is a prerequisite for debating here (or, at least, for those who come here to disagree with you, since you dont seem to hold your fellow Dispensationalists to that same standard), then I think youve pretty well stacked the deck. And yet, you did not accuse me of not having read every post. You accused me, in your own words as copied and pasted above, of not having read any of the posts. That means not even one! And yet the content of my post itself shows otherwise, as I directly referenced earlier postings by you and others. So, either you dont understand the difference between those two very basic English language terms (which I doubt, as you do seem rather scholarly), or else you attempted to deliberately smear me rather than debate my points (I certainly hope you wouldnt stoop to that  I dont think He would like people who claim to follow Him using deliberately dishonest tactics in His name), or perhaps at 10:34am you were still a bit groggy in the morning and werent thinking straight? Im really trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here.
 
  
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  From:  David (DavidABrown)    5/28/2002 3:44 pm  
To:  COMALite J (COMALITEJ)   (210 of 213)  
 
  29.210 in reply to 29.209  
 
 

In the first place you totally misquoted the Bible a book that Im sure you have never even read for yourself yet you are here posting.

 

In Continuing to reference your misrepresenting material you stated that people are being killed because the Bible says to discipline your child.

 

True the Bible does say to discipline your children yet you in your desire to misquote the Bible, and therefore misrepresent Christianity have declared that the Bible says to beat children even to death. How pathetic your reasoning is, or more likely its someone elses reasoning and you are just the troll spreading it.

 

So apparently you believe that children are to be raised with no discipline?

 

Secondly you are here choosing to argue about the most minor of syntax, give it a rest if you really had a case to make against Christianity you could have made it.

 

Here is your requested Link 

 http://forums.delphiforums.com/basicchristian/messages?msg=354.1 



David A. Brown
Basic Christian: Forum
 
  
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  From:  COMALite J (COMALITEJ)   5/28/2002 10:52 pm  
To:  David (DavidABrown)    (211 of 213)  
 
  29.211 in reply to 29.210  
 
I have read several versions of the Bible all the way through, and can quote very lengthy passages of most from memory. I can tell you in detail the origins of the various translations, which ancient documents they come from, the pros and cons of the KJV-Only controversy (Masoretic Text vs. Septuagint/LLX for the Old Testament, Textus Receptus vs. Vaticanus and Sinaiticus for the New Testament), etc. Hand me a Bible identical to one you have yourself, then stand behind me so I cant see where youre reading from, and start reading any chapter, and before you are halfway through with that one chapter I will be reading along with you. And Ive been able to do that since childhood (having spent my early childhood as a Nazarene and a Methodist, and the grandson of a Nazarene minister). And furthermore, I did not misquote any Bible passages: if you will check, I did not quote any passages at all verbatim, since I knew that different translations would word them differently. I told only the jist of their meanings, and provided the references so that people could look them up for themselves.

You called me an unbeliever in your first response to me even though you know nothing about me except my posts. Would you be surprised to know that I am a believer and a Christian? Maybe not your type of Christian (not a Protestant, nor Catholic, though I am a Dispensationalist of a sort, by strict definition [any religion that believes that God dispenses increasing knowledge about Himself through the ages, starting from Adam, through Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Moses, the Prophets, Christ, etc.  by that level of technicallity, we are also both New Agers, since we both believe a glorious New Age {The Millennium} is coming]). I am an unbeliever in the idea of elevating the Bible to deityhood, to worshipping the Creature (the Bible) more than the Creator (the Holy Spirit who inspired the Bible) as the Ultimate Source of Truth, in the idea that an infinite God has only finite Word, the idea that God came down with Eternal Laryngitis after Revelation 22:21, etc. I know that there are books the Bible itself mentions as part of itself (at least a dozen by name, and several others strongly implied  and no, I am not talking here about the Apocrypha, Pseudopigrapha, Dead Sea Scrolls, Nag Hammadi Gnostic Gospels, or any of that stuff  I mean books the Bible itself names as part of itself which we for various reasons dont have in the Bible, even though many of them do exist (I own a copy of the Book of Jasher, for instance, mentioned in Joshua 10:13 and II Samuel 1:18). I am an unbeliever in the idea that a collection of scholars in the Third Century, in a series of Councils, knew better than Paul himself did which of his own Epistles was inspired and important enough to be included in the New Testament (Colossians 4:16 being just one example: here Paul is clearly placing his Epistle to the Laodiceans, which is not in our Bible, as equal to the Epistle to the Colossians, which is! And whatever the Epistle to the Laodiceans says, it must include something unique and important, or else Paul wouldntve insisted that the Colossians read it! Theres also the small matter of I Corinthians 5:9, which has Paul very clearly saying that he wrote an Epistle to them prior to the so-called First Epistle of St. Paul the Apostle to the Corinthians!  though, granted, he goes on to say that in at least one matter he didnt express himself clearly in that one, so perhaps it really wasnt inspired [though Peter does strongly imply that Paul didnt express himself clearly quite often in his inspired writings, and even states that many people will mistakenly twist his words unto their own destruction: II Peter 3:1516]).

Moving right along to your outrageous charges against my post: no, sir, I did not declare that the Bible says to beat children even to death. I said that the Bible says that if you do beat your child with a rod, that the child will not die! Does it or does it not say this, in the passage I referred to (here, the guy you called lazy will save you the effort of going back and looking: it was Proverbs 22:13  please post how that reads in your Bible)? Most certainly I do not believe that children should be raised without discipline. My sole point with that passage is that it appears to be a promise from God, and yet that promise has demonstrably failed on many occasions, with hideously tragic results.

You know, you are really making it hard to debate you on a purely honest, intellectual level, since you insist on twisting words, making baseless personal charges, requiring that everyone who posts a single dissenting word here must first read every single post in the entire Forum first lest they be called lazy, while those who agree with you are under no such stricture, etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. I hate personal attacks and insults, and would rather not have to debate you on such a level. Note that no such thing appeared in my first post, and the only ones I have used in subsequent ones (including this one), I pretty much had to to counter such tactics used against me. So, I ask you, are you interested in an honest intellectual debate, or are you not? If not, I wont waste my time further here (I have better things to do with my threescore and ten, of which I have significantly less than half remaining), but will hold you as having conceded defeat.

Thanks for the link. I will read it and reply in that Thread, if you are in fact interested in a fair debate.
 
  
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  From:  sublime windchime (JDaneman)    6/23/2002 6:43 am  
To:  ALL   (212 of 213)  
 
  29.212 in reply to 29.211  
 
And as far as the "firmament" goes, there is an interesting book that proposes that the firmament is something equivalent to the "ether" that Einstein's contemporaries proposed to make up for the mathematical discrepancies that cause the Unified Field Theory to fail.  
  
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   From:  COMALite J (COMALITEJ)   6/24/2002 6:41 am  
To:  sublime windchime (JDaneman)    (213 of 213)  
 
  29.213 in reply to 29.212  
 
Two problems with that:

#1, the Hebrew word translated as firmament definitely means a hard, firm object (thus the English translation firmament in the KJV). Ether would be the diametric opposite  about as opposite as you could possibly get! Compared to ether, the sparse hydrogen clouds that make up a nebula (with a very few molecules per cubic mile of space) would be extremely firm indeed! Heck, neutrinos would be more firm, and they pass right through the entire Earth without even noticing! Oh, in case you think the English translation of the Hebrew might be mistaken, and perhaps the firmament aint so firm after all, keep in mind that the very stated purpose of this firmament thingie was to hold up a vast body of water that was supposedly above it! (I would be interested to see what this book you refer to has to say about just where these waters above the firmament are supposed to be, seeing as no space probe has ever found them, either). Were talking a body of water massive enough to supply all of the rain that the entire Earth would ever need or experience throughout its entire existence (keep in mind that the ancient Hebrews didnt know about the evaporation / condensation water cycle! They thought that all of the rainwater that ever fell or ever would fall was new water coming from the waters above the firmament falling through windows in the firmament)! Compare this with how firm say, a typical reservoir dam is, and that is a vastly smaller body of water being held, and it is only being held back from the side, not up from the bottom!

#2, the ether hypothesis was long ago flatly disproven experimentally by direct observation, by measuring light in the wake of the Earths orbit around the Sun, which, if ether existed, should have caused a wake in the ether like a boat leaves in water, which should likewise have affected the path and speed of light waves passing through it (ether being, according to the hypothesis, the substance that propagates waves of light, just as air is the substance that propagates waves of sound). There was no difference found between light in front of, behind, or to the sides of, the Earth in its Solar orbit. This is grade achool science stuff here.



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Edited 6/24/2002 10:00:28 AM ET by COMALite J (COMALITEJ) 
  
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